Polio whack-a-mole

The great allies of infectious diseases are no longer poverty, nor dirt, but the global anti-vaccination movement

by 2500 2,500 words
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An Israeli child receives a polio vaccine in the southern city of Be’er Sheva August 5, 2013. Photo by Amir Cohen/Reuters

An Israeli child receives a polio vaccine in the southern city of Be’er Sheva August 5, 2013. Photo by Amir Cohen/Reuters

Keren Landsman is an Israeli physician specializing in epidemiology and public health. She writes science fiction and the Hebrew blog, 'End of the world'.

Polio should have been eradicated long ago, at least in the developed world. After all, we’ve had a good, efficient vaccine for 60 years. So why is polio still here? And what is it doing in my country?

Israel is the original start-up nation, powered by high-tech and science, with some of the most sophisticated medical research in the world. We have come a long way from the 1950s, when polio was still with us and the signature experience was living on a Kibbutz. We are a modern, wired nation, but we forgot one thing: we still live in the Middle East. We have great weather, plenty of sunshine, lovely beaches, and two relatively nearby countries – Pakistan and Afghanistan – where the wild polio virus still roams free.

Shortly before polio returned to Israel, it hit the sewers of Egypt, our neighbour to the south, in December 2012. Egypt, like Israel, already vaccinated widely – so someone from Pakistan must have entered Egypt, used a toilet, and excreted polio into the sewer system around Cairo, probably infecting some Egyptians along the way. Egyptian physicians could find no cases of polio paralysis, the most devastating outcome of the disease, and that made sense: 95 per cent of people infected with polio show no symptoms and never become sick. But Egypt knew paralysis would be next if the virus was allowed to spread. So Egypt fought back. A nationwide campaign was initiated, and more than 14 million Egyptian children were vaccinated against polio. Within a month, the Egyptians had vanquished polio from its sewers and its country, yet again.

But that didn’t stop the polio virus from migrating, to us. Pakistan and Israel don’t share a border, but travel between Egypt and Israel is a common affair. During the month it took Egypt to stop the spread of polio, someone from Egypt must have travelled to Israel, bringing polio with them.

That must explain why, on 9 April 2013, our nationwide monitoring team isolated wild poliovirus type 1 (WPV1) – genetically related to the polio from Pakistan and Egypt – from sewage samples taken in Rahat, a city in southern Israel. Immunisation levels in Rahat, at 94 per cent, were good but not perfect. So the Israel Ministry of Health initiated a catch-up programme in the area where the samples were collected, finding the unprotected and inoculating them with the standard polio vaccine – IVP, or inactivated polio vaccine. That product, injected through the skin, is a totally dead version of the polio virus, and cannot cause the disease.

But it was too little, too late. A few days later we found polio virus in the sewers of Be’er Sheva, a city of some 200,000 people, about 20 km south of Rahat. Our national monitors responded by increasing sewer surveillance and scrutinising the population for signs of active illness, including paralysis and meningitis, a swelling of the lining of the brain.

I was, at the time, an intern in public health at the Carmel Medical Center, in a suburb of Haifa, and I was pretty excited – it’s not every day we have a forgotten epidemic on our hands. Perhaps I was cavalier, but only because I felt sure we would contain the epidemic in a month without incident, just like the Egyptians.

It was hard to tear myself away for a long-planned family vacation to the UK while this uproar was going on. But we had a great trip, and my two kids loved both the country and the fact that their mother stopped talking about polio all day.

I expected to return to work at the hospital, business as usual, problem solved. But while we were away, polio had spread through the nation’s sewer system and Israel had spiralled into panic mode.

It was terrifying. Poliomyelitis has been with us for thousands of years, at least since the days of the ancient Egyptian pharaohs. Back then, the disease was truly rare. That’s because people were exposed to poliovirus (which spreads through faeces) as infants, and built immunity against it from the start. But with improvements in hygiene over the centuries, encounters with the virus were delayed. Without early resistance, we became more vulnerable, and a scarce disease became an epidemic.

By the first half of the 20th century, with dramatic improvements in hygiene, the ravages of polio had become well-known: infection provoked a fever, sore throat, sometimes a stiff neck. Then the terror: a so-called ‘flaccid’ paralysis, caused by lack of muscle tone, starting from the feet and progressing up, as patients became unable to walk, sit erect and, finally, breathe.

Those patients were put in ‘iron lungs’, a machine that pulls the chest wall up and down, compensating for the paralysed diaphragm and chest muscles. That was the only way they could survive. Sick children had to stay in the iron lungs until the paralysis withdrew and their muscles returned to the normal strength. For some children, it meant just a few painful months. For others, it meant staying in those machines for the rest of their lives.

Then two people saved the world – the American virologists Jonas Salk and Albert Sabin. In the 1950s, they developed two different vaccines against polio, both efficient, both pretty safe, and both with the potential to prevent future epidemics. First, Salk invented IPV, the inactivated polio vaccine, made from dead virus. It could never cause the disease itself, but because it was injected into the muscles, it had one slight drawback: it was metabolised before reaching the gut, and thus recipients exposed to polio could harbour the virus in their intestines without ever getting sick. Such carriers could still pass on polio, through their faeces, to other carriers, and cause the disease in anyone who was not vaccinated.

Within two months, there were 15 new paralytic cases in Israel – the elderly, the immune-compromised, the already sick

Given that risk, by 1961, much of the developed world including Israel and the US switched to Sabin’s OPV, or oral polio vaccine. OPV was a living virus, weakened in the lab so it would not cause disease. Yet OPV wasn’t perfect, either. That weakened virus could still paralyse one in every 2.7 million children given the vaccine. It was better than the statistics of 1 in 200 unvaccinated children exposed to the wild virus, but still a slight risk. This type of polio disease was called vaccine-associated polio paralysis, or VAPP.

In countries that vaccinated, these life-saving but imperfect vaccines set the stage for polio’s ebbs, flows and outright outbreaks for years. It was possible to use only IVP, only OVP, or a combination of the two, with strategies varying around the world. It came home to roost in Israel in 1988, after the Ministry of Health decided to halt use of the live vaccine (and risk of dreaded VAPP) in two northern districts – Hadera and Ramla, near the city of Haifa. This group of children received only IPV, the killed vaccine, and they were well-protected against polio, though without gut immunity. Yet the switch had been a big mistake. Within two months, there were 15 new paralytic cases in Israel consisting of the most vulnerable targets – the elderly, the immune-compromised, the already sick.

Analysing the situation, the Israeli government looked at the global data collected by the World Health Organization: it turned out that in nations at risk, a combination of the two vaccines could work best. A single, previous IPV shot made of dead virus could protect against the spread of vaccine-associated polio from the live vaccine. The live vaccine, meanwhile, would prevent the virus from taking root in the gut, where it might spread out to infect the vulnerable and exposed.

So in 1990, Israel initiated a new vaccination programme – every child first received IPV, injected and dead. Then, only afterwards, they received OPV, the living oral vaccine that passed through the gut. For 15 years we saw no sign of polio in Israel – not even in the sewers. With polio seemingly gone, we followed the lead of the US in 2005 and once more pulled OPV, eliminating even a minuscule risk of VAPP.

By 2013, it was as if we had taken a time machine back to 1988 – only now, instead of just two districts, children age nine and under from all over Israel lacked gut immunity. With polio entering the country from countries around the Middle East, these kids could become carriers, spreading the virus to the unvaccinated and the immune-compromised alike, without ever getting sick themselves.

Just as before, such children endangered everyone with whom they came into contact. We found the polio that they carried in sewers all over Israel, and it was only a matter of time before one of them infected a vulnerable neighbour or relative – elderly grandparents; HIV patients; transplant or autoimmune patients on immune-suppressants; perhaps babies who hadn’t yet been vaccinated or developed antibodies. The government determined that a supplementary dose of OPV for carrier children was the only way out.

The vaccination campaign began on 5 August 2013, and Facebook exploded with complaints over the sacrifice that meant: totally healthy children were to receive the live vaccine, and parents were livid.

Fanning the flames of anger and fear and sabotaging our campaign was anti-vaccine propaganda coming from around the world, especially from the US. It’s amazing that this uneducated movement would descend on Israel in the middle of our crisis, convincing our population to turn OPV down. They doubted OPV efficiency and safety. They questioned the motives of the Israeli government and, alarmingly, they dismissed the existence of polio as an infectious disease.

We had to convince people with healthy children to vaccinate them again, not for their own safety, but for the public good

Now the war to stop polio was being fought on two fronts – vaccines and words. The vaccines did their part. Children who took those OPV drops built their gut immunity against polio and were no longer at risk of becoming walking biological weapons. If a child was already a polio carrier, the OPV wouldn’t help, but it wouldn’t harm him or her either. If the kid wasn’t a carrier, the OPV would make sure he or she would never become one.

But that wasn’t enough. We had to convince people with healthy children to vaccinate them again, not for their own safety, but for the public good. As a student of public health and a blogger with a social media presence, I took to the internet, especially Facebook, to fend off the anti-vaxxers, answer these questions, and explain the facts. It was such an all-consuming job that my kids and friends didn’t get a chance to see me for the next two months.

When one question was answered, another followed, and when all questions were answered, vaccine sceptics went back to square one and started the whole discussion again.

In fact, I explained to my online audience, for those not receiving the dead vaccine first, OVP did bring a small risk of VAPP – but that wasn’t the situation now. Everyone getting OPV had gotten IPV first.

I must be a part of the ‘Big Pharma’ industry if I thought polio was a dangerous disease, they said, or just a fool

Every time I set the record straight, pushback emerged. But after a while, I found a whole community of helpers by my side, waging the battle at the online front. Israeli doctors, science bloggers, the sceptics community and scientists all joined the explanatory effort. The data about the vaccine was available and most of us had lots of experience at explaining science in simple terms.

For months, the firestorm raged.

‘Since no one is sick, why should we vaccinate?’ asked the anti-vaxxers.

‘Why do you want to see someone with polio paralysis?’ asked the pro-vaccines community.

‘Why should I put my child at risk?’ asked a parent.

‘You’re not putting your child at risk,’ responded the pro-vaccines groups. ‘Getting OPV after IPV is completely safe.’

Pro-vaccine parents published pictures of their kids receiving OPV in the nurses’ clinic to prove their point.

As my online presence increased, I was personally targeted by anti-vaccine activists. They questioned my professionalism as well as my personal integrity. I must be a part of the ‘Big Pharma’ industry if I thought polio was a dangerous disease, they said, or just a fool.

As long as the accusations stayed virtual, it was all right, but I was terrified that someone might find out where I lived and attack my family. I went offline for a few days. Luckily for me, by that time my pro-vaccine colleagues were deftly handling the onslaught. They kept on the whole time I was gone. After I came back, we started a vacation rotation. Each time someone else went offline, others stayed on to fight the fight on Facebook, convincing parents to vaccinate their kids.

Every day during those two hard months, there was a different obstacle to tackle. One day a mother claimed her little girl had become paralysed half an hour after receiving OPV. Within minutes, the story spread through the web. Another two hours passed before someone reported the real story: the child fell asleep outside the doctor’s office, wet herself in her sleep and, when she woke up, her feet felt numb. The explanation was mundane and didn’t fit the anti-vaxxers’ agenda. The pro-vaccine group had to spread the rest of the story wherever they could.

At least I wasn’t the vaccine ‘poster girl’ anymore; there were many other people whose reputation was dragged through the mud by the anti-vaxxers along with mine. I made many new friends and, as the saying goes, a sorrow shared is a sorrow halved.

By October 2013, Israel’s official national campaign was over. The virus was still around, but more than 60 per cent of children in Israel had received OPV. It wasn’t a perfect score, but it was enough to turn the tide. By November 2013, Israel’s sewage samples started to come back negative for polio.

And in January 2014 we had a victory on the ground – a new committee convened and, after reviewing the evidence, decided to reintroduce OPV into Israel’s vaccination schedule for good.

I know this vaccine is alive, but I am not afraid. Data from around the world and from Israel tells me that OPV given after IPV is safe and effective. I know that VAPP is no longer a risk, and that the protection against polio is optimal.

We won the fight against polio in Israel but we are losing it in the rest of the world. Afghanistan, Pakistan and Nigeria still have polio, and they are still exporting it to other countries. Syria had 22 paralytic polio cases in the wake of the civil war and the breakdown of their health system. Polio exported from Nigeria has reached the Horn of Africa, and more than 190 children were diagnosed with polio paralysis in 2013.

My parents gave me a world without smallpox – I wanted to give my children a world without polio but, beyond the borders of our little country, polio is back.

Comments

  • Dorit Reiss

    A powerful article by a talented, devoted, selfless doctor. Karen Landsman is underplaying the amazing, heroic work she undertook, in the fact of substantial pushback, to speak up for protecting children and protecting the public health. She is a hero, and her actions really helped fight to rid Israel of polio.

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    • Tony Morris

      Truth of the matter:

      "A powerful [untruthful] article [propaganda] by a talented [not too smart], devoted [to money], selfless [selfish] doctor. Karen Landsman is underplaying [misrepresenting] the amazing [despicable], heroic [failing] work she undertook, in the fact of substantial pushback [you got that right], to speak up for protecting [harming] children and protecting [harming] the public health. She is a hero [villain], and her actions really helped fight to rid Israel of polio [healthy kids]."

      See more of my comments below.

      • Dorit Reiss

        Lacking science or evidence for their point of view, the anti vaccineicent has no choice but to attack the messenger. It is evidence of the weakness of their case, and a poor substitute to facts

        • Dorit Reiss

          Attacks against those who disagree are a poor addition to misinformation that puts children at risk of disease.

      • Mike Stevens

        After reading your extraordinarily graceless and repellant comment above, I feel no particular desire to see more of your comments below.

        • Tony Morris

          It's OK, Mike. Take me to your leader (oh, I've found her, don't bother).

          • tonya

            Yeah im not getting payed. So does dorit. Nobodys paying no law proffesor to comment on public health issues, sorry to tell you. Youre uneducated and hiding. So tell us who pays YOU.

    • Tony Morris

      Dorit, who pays for your 3500+ comments in a period of just few months? Don't tell me that you are the ONLY person in the world who spends so much energy selling vaccines and don't see a penny...
      You can $%&^& the Americans all you want, but not us Israelis. We know the likes of you.

      • Tony Morris

        Dorit? Dorit? Why won't you answer this one?

        • Shahar Mahbet

          I don't know tony, how many comments did you published at the last year?

          • Tony Morris

            Guys, Dorit called the cavalry so she can evade tough questions?
            Nobody pays me, as you know all too well.
            Now, let have Dorit state on record that she doesn't get any benefits from her writing.

          • Nana

            we don't know, since you're hiding behind a fake name and fake profile. and you're publishing every health-conspiracy in the world, and supporting killer-parents, and publishing all kinds of lies on a regular basis... so it's quite hard to trust your motives, y'know?

          • Tony Morris

            So, you suspect I get money for my writing. OK.
            what about Dorit - do u think she's spending all this time promoting vaccines - for nothing?

          • Shahar Mahbet

            If you are hiding, so no one can see that your leaves are clean, you have no right to question nobody.

          • Tony Morris

            So, bottom line, you are an hypocrite protecting Dorit so she doesn't have to answer the questions as to the rewards she get from pretending to be grassroot.
            I won't spend anymore of my time answering you.

          • tonya

            Ummm actually, you are the hypocrite. We all know where Dorit works. At the academy. Of Law. Where do you work, mister sunflower? Which organization pays you? What are you selling?

          • tonya

            Well dear readers, seems like i got my answer. As you can see my last comment is a reply to "Tony Morris"- who just deleted his embarrassing reply to Shahar.
            What a lousy anti-vaxx troll :/

          • Tony Morris

            Well tonya, wrong again, dear.
            I haven't deleted my comment. Probably one of your freinds whined about it.
            And Dorit, which brought you here to protect her, is still missing in action in this thread and the other threads.

          • Shahar Mahbet

            It won't help you tony, if you want to talk about some one else, show as yourself.

            you will not throw dirt on another person while you hide like a coward.

          • Tony Morris

            Shahar, Dorit should have summoned here a larger cannon than yourself.
            You can whine all you want, but that won't explain away Dorit's 3500+ comments, selling vaccines. So I ask again:

            Dorit Reiss Do you, or do you not receive/received any tangible benefits from the act of posting +3500 comments supporting vaccinations?

          • t

            Dorit is getting a pay check from uni. You know, coz shes educated. Not like you. And ypuve posted 7500+ comments at least!!! You're the one needing money. Who pays you???

          • tonya

            Youre ALWAYS deleting your msgs after someone points at your mistakes. So i don't believe you. Im sure youve deleted your comment because it was so silly to say someone is a hypocrite when you dont telk the truth about your self and your occupation.

          • Tony Morris

            tonya, dear, I'm sad to tell you that you are not too good at what you are doing. You will never get paid for this kind of work (unlike other 'sisters' here.)
            My advice: find yourself another corrupted way to make money.

        • Nana

          Tony Morris, the question is who pays YOU for thousands of comments all over the web?
          Dorit is a proffesor of law. you, so I hear, are only a "proffesor of Google". so... who pays YOU? what kind of suppelments are you marketing? or maybe you just have too much time on your hands at your prison cell after killing your own child?

      • Tony Morris

        @doritreiss:disqus Do you, or do you not receive/received any tangible benefits from the act of posting +3500 comments supporting vaccinations?

      • t

        WHO PAYS YOU TONY?

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  • Dave

    When I was a child in the 1960s, we contributed our pennies and nickles in school to help fight polio in less fortunate countries. I remember the posters with the children's pictures, disfigured for a lifetime because they did not have adequate medical care.

    The intense stupidity of science-denying parents today who would willingly maim their child for life simply because of some insane conspiracy theory is beyond comprehension. I wish some of them faced criminal prosecution for what they're doing by refusing to safeguard our society's most precious resource -- our children.

  • http://www.toddpitock.com/ Todd Pitock

    This is an interesting piece but some things are said a bit glibly, and as a journalist who has reported on the topic quite a lot, there are some things here that I think should be addressed. The opening lines, for example. "Polio should have been eradicated long ago, at least in the developed world. After all, we’ve had a good, efficient vaccine for 60 years. So why is polio still here? And what is it doing in my country?" As with all healthcare delivery, it's all about the immense difficulties of, well, delivery. It has taken this long to distribute the vaccine, a simple idea with enormous obstacles and complications. It's a big world out there. There are masses of communities that until GPS technology effectively didn't exist to the known world. There were anti-vaxers who were armed and dangerous and anti-vaxers who were political opportunists and anti-vaxers who just needed to be educated and reassured. There was also resistance from very smart naysayers who simply argued that eradication was an unrealistic goal. The story's last line, "I wanted to give my children a world without polio but, beyond the borders of our little country, polio is back," is dead wrong. Polio did not stage a comeback. It was never gone from the endemic countries and outbreaks and containment have always been part of the struggle. That line conveys a message that polio eradication failed, and that's not the case at all. It's arguably the most ambitious and successful public health initiative in history, a late-stage work-in-progress, it's the model that has created an infrastructure and a body of knowledge for future campaigns against malaria, dengue fever, and measles. It has not fallen short or rolled back. Consider India, which had 250,000 victims the year the global eradication initiative began. It has had zero victims since its last in January 2011. The Horn of Africa cases, btw, were almost all in Somalia, and I think if you look at the situation in its entirety it's more nuanced. Yes, 194 cases is a terrible tragedy. But because of the rapid response, the outbreak was contained and there haven't been any new cases since December -- and again, consider the logistical challenges of delivering vaccine in a strife-torn failed state like Somalia. If you actually go to these places, which otherwise barely have anything resembling a healthcare infrastructure, you see what an astounding achievement the whole polio program has been. And in fact, even the case Keren Landsman cites, Israel, is also arguably a feather in the WHO/et al's caps: that there were no human cases is due to their campaigns.

  • Ravi Wells

    The arrogant, no wait, insanely egotistically arrogant article makes it so abundantly clear why Israel has become the worlds most remorseless, shameless oppressor of another people.

    EVERY major epidemic of the last 100 years that medical science has claimed to have "cured" with vaccines was in dramatic decline LONG BEFORE any mercury-laden, monkey-virus laden vaccine was foisted on an unsuspecting world.

    Sanitation, clean water and healthy food saves people from disease - the anti-vaxers of which i am ADAMANTLY one, have an exploding database of vaccine reactions, outbreaks in fully vaccinated populations as well as massive evidence that vaccinations themselves are causing outbreaks of these very diseases they are claimed to protect against.

    oh the heartfelt "I wanted to give my children a world without polio"... then stop Nestle from nationalizing poor countries water supply, stop pharmaceutical companies form flooding poor, undernourished people with drugs that further destroy their own natural resistance to diseases, stop Bill Gates from he and his cohorts eugenics vaccinations schemes - (WHO caught in the 90's adding a sterilizing agent to tetanus vaccine...FACT....)

    want to help people with their health?? give them clean water, real food, sanitary toilets -

    OK all you sheeple out there who believe that modern medicine is the miracle it keeps promoting itself to be - take your "shot" at me - but keep your vaccines for destroying your own health and that or YOUR children.

    Freedom is about having the choice ESPECIALLY about what is injected into my own body and that of my children - of course, and Israeli would have difficulty with that concept--

    and finally, this site has clearly been co-opted by the same elitist power group mouthing the conventional, pharma-promo, NWO droids that co-opted TED talks - last you'll see of me--

    • kthejoker

      You're in luck! Even though we've all diagnosed you with massive stupidity, there's no known cure ...

    • Sam

      This post is like performance art in the various ways in which it both misses and confirms the author's points. With, of course, dashes of paranoia and anti-Semitism for flavour.
      Also: "OK all you sheeple out there who believe that modern medicine is the miracle it keeps promoting itself to be - take your "shot" at me - but keep your vaccines for destroying your own health and that or YOUR children." Just a tip: using the word "sheeple" unironically renders irrelevant any and all input you have on an issue.

    • https://twitter.com/MrRobertFord Robert Ford

      ok, then you get to live in the non-vax world and we get the vaccine world. we'll see who does better;)

    • Sven

      Dear Ravi,

      indeed do nutrition, sanitation and poverty play major roles in the spread and complications of communicable diseases. And clearly should we strive towards reducing poverty and providing people with clean water, food and sanitation, as you suggest. But even if that is achievable at all, it will take time and still never entirely eradicate the disease—at least not as quickly as with vaccination.

      Also, your argument rests on the assumption that we should always attempt to remove the cause to prevent disease. By the same rationale we should not fluoridate toothpaste because sugars are the cause of tooth decay and let's not invest in road safety because cars are the real cause of accidents.

      The reality is that different approaches to controlling communicable disease are often taken simultaneously. And the mere prospect of being able to entirely eradicate a disease through vaccination, as was the case with smallpox, receives—nearly unparalleled—abundant global support. And it strengthens national health care systems with huge beneficial spillovers to other diseases. We have a true chance to eradicate polio entirely so that no one will ever suffer from it again. That will also free up ressources for other campaigns, like the ones you suggest.

      Thank you to the other commentators for speaking up as well. And Ravi, constructive disagreements are fine but there is no need for being disrespectful towards the author. Also, you refer that you have "massive evidence that vaccinations themselves are causing outbreaks" could you please elaborate on your definition of outbreaks and give a few references?

      • Ravi Wells

        you are so wrong on every point you so calmly try to make that i will only address one - the most critical one,

        As impressive as modern medical science is at saving people after traumas and accidents (credit where credit is due), the prevailing attitude and approach to health maintenance and disease prevention is devestatingly and utterly wrong - and it is because the sincere people that become medical professionals are trained by the companies driving that exactly wrong view of disease prevention for profit - cause there is NO profit in a healthy self-caring self-informed population.

        Here's what i CHALLENGE ANYONE here to prove - that modern medicine has eliminated ANY disease via vaccinations - they have NOT - smallpox for sure NOT. that is what they have repeated now for 50+ years, but it is simply not true.

        Every disease cycles through a population and depending on a plethora of interacting conditions, the disease is mild or deadly. NOT A SINGLE VACCINE was introduced and made any impact whatsoever (in fact prolonged) any disease cycle in the past `100 years.

        don't believe me? fine - but take the time to read an excellent article fully integrating the available science and proofs: http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/vaccines-didnt-save-us-intellectual-dishonesty-at-its-most-naked/ if you are really an intelligent person considering all viewpoints (not so possible with this crowd i think--) try this multiple PhD MD Dr Andrew Moulden explaining to you exactly why not only are vaccines not effective, but they are THE SINGLE BIGGEST FACTOR in destroying our last 2 generations of children. "Tolerance Lost" on you tube - invest the time on this one if you are really so liberal and open minded--

        now i am really gone -

    • Phil

      Ravi - i have no problem with anti- vaxxers who go live on their own island and never interact with other children but the problem is that.. You want to set your own rules but still be part of a community.
      My child is fighting cancer and therefore immuno compromised. She has been receiving treatment for over a year now and her doctors think she is stable abd should start living in a normal world although she is still in treatment, because afterall children need to see other kids... Well guess what - the school had an unvaccinated kid in the class and now my child is sitting back at home and her life is back to being hospital and home without any interactions with kids. So bottom line is that anti-vaxxers are selfish because they think they aren't affecting the life of anyone else but guess what, kids like mine depend on the other kids having vaccines.
      Go live on an island with your kids and no one will give you any trouble.

      • Hated Hydra

        Your child's immune system is screwed up because of the so called cancer fighting radiation you make him/her go through. ALL natural illnesses and MOST natural occurring diseases are DIETARY problems. Cancer has a CURE it's called Marijuana. Don't believe me, then why does the US Federal Govt own the patent to Marijuana and ALL it's cancer curing properties?

        • tom bun

          Really? Is the netherlands cancer-free? They got all the cannabis they want, totally legal.

    • Евгений Лотош

      > Freedom is about having the choice ESPECIALLY about what is injected into my own body and that of my children

      Your freedom stops at the spot where other's freedom begins. You can't shoot people in the street just because you think it's fun. You can't be career of lethal deceases just because you want it. Period. If you don't like it, go buy your own island and isolate yourself there forever.

    • ABK

      How is it that you're smarter and more knowledgeable than all the collective scientists and doctors in the world? That must feel great.

      • Mike Stevens

        Not just him either... all the antivax trolls are similarly afflicted with delusions of massive superiority.

  • https://twitter.com/MrRobertFord Robert Ford

    are we sure, in the US, that it's anti-vaxxers and not illegals?

    • ocschwar

      Yes. The illegals come from countries that don't tolerate vaccine evasion.

  • TwilightNewsSite

    Keren, it seems like kind of a witch-hunt to simply blame "anti-vaxxers" for this complex issue -- especially while pharmaceuticals foist the flu vaccines on us year-after-year, based on little more than greed, wishful thinking, and a disregard for the illnesses they cause. This seems particularly true in regards to the inhaler version, which offers 3 or 4 -- often perfectly-alive -- flu viruses across the globe. Annually. And then they blame the inadequacies of their self-fulfilling-prophecy "vaccine" on the "anti-vaxxers," as though these forced the corporations to sell this annual attack on the public health (over the mercury issue). The pharmaceutical companies are acting irresponsible at best, and very possibly, criminally. And yet the public is expected to trust them with their other products?

  • NadineLumley

    vaccinations are just a way for big pharma and their 1% buddies (which includes closet homosexual Harper) to control us.

  • Евгений Лотош

    This is an excellent article, and I appraise the efforts its author and her colleagues put into their campaign. Medieval style of thinking is still widespread, and there is only one thing on Earth that can fight it - education. Only properly educated people can understand the real risks and benefits of modern medicine and make correct decisions, and that's why such selfless enthusiasts who spend their time and efforts for such educational campaigns are priceless.

    Great job. And don't pay attention to those anti-vaxxers. Idiots always exist, this is inevitable...

  • Tony Morris

    What a fairy tail... No word about the 10 babies/young- children who were paralyzed during the OPV operation last summer? They were all immunized with OPV and weeks after became paralyzed. These kids paid the price of the Polio hoax... Their mothers lament having believed the vaccine pushers. They are still paralyzed.
    BTW, no unvaccinated child paralyzed during the OPV operation. The score: 10-0.

    I wonder if the author will find the courage to face the consequences of her actions. Will she pay a visit to the families of these OPV-injured children?

    • Tony Morris

      Here's a Google translation of a news piece about one Israeli child paralyzed shortly after receiving the OPV vaccine last summer.
      This child and his family has paid the price of the corruption of the vaccine pushers in Israel.

      https://translate.google.co.il/translate?hl=en&sl=iw&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.nrg.co.il%2Fonline%2F29%2FART2%2F514%2F344.html

      • Dorit Reiss

        Paralyzed after is not paralyzed because. Any medical or scientific evidence of a causal connection?

        • Mike Stevens

          The child suffered from ADEM, and not acute paralytic poliomyelitis anyhow. So there is no direct causal link anyway.
          As usual though, those wishing to scaremonger about vaccines will lay every illness that follows vaccination at its door.

          • Tony Morris

            Sure, Mike. ADEM. Or Guillian-Barre.
            Myabe, in the 50s, all those paralyzed kids also had ADEM and GBS?

          • Mike Stevens

            They are different you know.
            Scientists name and classify diseases precisely for a reason.
            Polio cases show typical neurological features which includes asymmetrical lower motor neurone weakness and sometimes flaccid paralysis; there are typical histological features, CSF changes and in cases of polio the virus is readily identifiable if looked for. All pretty much diagnostic. And a mile away from the antivaxxer notion that every "neurological problem" must be vaccine-polio and nothing else.

          • Tony Morris

            Mike, you do understand that this child, as well as several others, displayed flaccid paralysis, right? You are aware that it was asymmetrical, right?
            You are aware that there are several vaccines (not just OPV) that can cause flaccid paralysis, right?

            Nobody claims the kid had "polio". He was paralyzed by a vaccine which he received few weeks before, and for which flaccid paralysis is a known AE (check the product sheet).

            Now, could you answer me how do we know that all those kids in the 50s didn't have ADEM or GBS or 10 other AFP variants? Did they do the tests back in the

          • Mike Stevens

            It would seem from the google translated link that the case occurred around 4 weeks post vaccination, polio virus was not identified, and conformed to ADEM and not a clinical polio case. All reasons to doubt it was due to VAP.

            Not conclusive, but unlikely. 600,000 doses of OPV and statistically I guess one might see a case or 2 of VAP - that is possible.

            GBS is pretty distinct from asymmetrical flaccid paralysis. It is almost always symmetrical and ascending. Reflexes are lost. There is often glove and stocking sensory loss. CSF findings are typical, with extremely high protein levels not found with acute viral meningitis/polyradiculopathies/myelitis. And it usually gets better. I am sure there is no doubt 100% of doctors in the 50s could distinguish this from polio.

            I've seen this sort of argument before - the accusation that clinicians don't know a diagnosis of the child they are caring for, and some amateur with google at his disposal decides the diagnosis is different.

            It's the sort of "Well that animal was about 5kg, had sharp teeth, a long tail, walked on 4 legs and liked humans - so it's obviously a dog" (when the animal was actually a cat) argument. It can then be extended to "Despite several domestic animal experts looking at it and declaring it to be a Siamese cat, I still know better. It's a dog".

          • Tony Morris

            Mike, are you aware that other vaccines cause AFP? Surely those do not contain polio virus?
            The OPV cause paralysis like other vaccines. nothing to do with the polio virus.

          • Mike Stevens

            OPV can through reversion of virulence result in full blown polio. Somone gets paralysis shortly after OPV (in the right time frame, and the right clinical neurology), I'd suspect vaccine associated polio until proven otherwise.

            So, what "other vaccines" cause asymmetrical flaccid paralysis then?

          • Tony Morris

            Well Mike, the parents of the vaccine-injured children do not state, and do not care, if their child was paralyzed by "polio" or other disease. Their child was paralyzed shortly after the vaccine. One case is a coincidence. Five cases is NO coincidence.

          • Mike Stevens

            What other vaccines cause asymmetric flaccid paralysis, Tony?

            Ignoring the question won't make it go away you know.

          • Tony Morris

            I answered you above. Look it up.

          • Mike Stevens

            NO, you didn't answer.
            You prevaricated.
            You mumbled something about flu product inserts (which do not say anything about them causing AFP), and said in your most vague, hand waving fashion... "and there are some others too"

            Which vaccines Tony?
            Answer please.

          • Mike Stevens

            So, what other vaccines cause asymmetrical, flaccid paralysis?

          • Mike Stevens

            Tony, what other vaccines cause AFP?
            Please name them.

          • F.

            WHO PAYS YOU???????????????????

        • Tony Morris

          As I wrote above - I have a proof that the Israeli MoH covered up the truth about these cases.

          • Mike Stevens

            What other vaccines cause asymmetric flaccid paralysis, Tony?

            Ignoring the question won't make it go away you know.

          • Tony Morris

            I answered you above.

          • Mike Stevens

            You didn't.

            But in case I somehow missed it, can you list them again?

            Bet you can't, you liar.

    • Dorit Reiss

      Do you have credible medical or scientific evidence of that claim?

      • Tony Morris

        Better, I have a proof that the Israel MoH covered it up.

        • Dorit Reiss

          An alleged conspiracy theory is no substitute for evidence. No scientific or medical evidence yet.

          • Tony Morris

            Not alleged. Proven.
            Now, let's see if u have a shred of dignity about you, Dorit.

            So, about 10 reports of kids paralyzed few weeks after being vaccinated with OPV. Some of the parents claim that the OPV did it to their kids.
            Israeli MoH says they look into the matter.
            What would you, Dorit, consider a fair and professional investigation of the matter by the MoH?

          • Dorit Reiss

            You provided no proof. Of either claim.

          • Tony Morris

            Well, you saw one case, haven't you? The parents claimed it was the vaccine who paralyzed their child.
            I repeat my question, and pls don't evade it again, as this will portray you as someone who's not interested in the truth (rather, as someone who's doing a job, you know).
            "What would you, Dorit, consider a fair and professional investigation of the matter by the MoH?"

          • Dorit Reiss

            If this one non polio case is all you have, that's the end of the discussion. With all due respect to parents' belief, parents are not infallible, and that's not medical evidence.

            You made the claim, you support it. Repeating it is not evidence. When you provide support, we will talk.

          • Tony Morris

            So, you're being evasive again, Dorit? Why wouldn't you want to lay out what, in your views, is an honest and professional investigation of an alleged paralysis following an OPV vaccine?

            I though you are only interested in the truth, right? Or, actually you don't think a fair investigation is due in cases of vaccine alleged injuries?

          • Dorit Reiss

            Not supporting your claims and repeating the same things does not make them any more credible. I will not comment on this anymore until you provide evidence. You did not yet and trying to deflect from that is not a substitute for evidence.

          • Tony Morris

            So, you are evading, yet AGAIN!
            Pls answer these questions:
            1. Do you think a fair investigation is due in cases of vaccine alleged injuries?
            2. What would you consider a fair investigation for the case of children allegedly injured by the OPV in Israel, summer 2013?

          • Doni Romis

            "proven conspiracy theory"...LOL
            take your medication, man. it's quite clear you're suffering from some kind of mental illness. hearing voices, are we? quite sad, actually :(

          • Guest

            Troll.

          • Tony Morris

            Doni, did Dorit asked you here to help her? Seems kind of funny that the minues she started to be evasive - you guys showed up. Do you want to aswer the questions Dorit ungracefully evaded? Here they are:

            1. Do you think a fair investigation is due in cases of vaccine alleged injuries?
            2. What would you consider a fair investigation for the case of children allegedly injured by the OPV in Israel, summer 2013?

            Be my guest. Since you were invited here by Dorit, i'll consider your answers as hers.

  • Tony Morris

    The author of the piece cannot tell science from fiction:

    - "Poliomyelitis has been with us for thousands of years, at least since the days of the ancient Egyptian pharaohs."
    There's no scientific proof that polio occurred anywhere in the world before the 19th century. Landsman is basing her claim on a single Egyptian painting depicting a person with a shriveled leg. Her "doctor" skills allowed her to diagnose that man as a "Polio patient", thereby claiming that "Poliomyelitis has been with us for thousands of years".
    That's her level of science, folks.

    - "That’s because people were exposed to poliovirus (which spreads through faeces) as infants, and built immunity against it from the start."
    Again, there's absolutely NO scientific proof for this claim. It's just a story told by vaccine-pushers. I challenge the author to provide scientific proof for her claim.

    - And one last question:
    If the kids in the US and Europe were not vaccinated with OPV for the past 15 years, how come Polio isn't spreading there? There's no herd-immunity in IPV, right? Do you seriously claim that no polio-carriers are coming to the US/Europe from the likes of Egypt, Pakistan, etc? A single Polio carrier will be enough to spread the disease in the entire continent, as no kid there is "protected" with OPV. So where's all that polio, Keren?

    • Dorit Reiss

      Actually, scientists agree that polio has ancient roots.

      • Tony Morris

        Where's the proof?

        • Dorit Reiss

          Here is a discussion of the history of polio. By a credible source. http://m.historyofvaccines.org/content/timelines/polio

          • Tony Morris

            Where' your proof, Dorit?
            (And don't give that "credible source" %$#. I'm Israeli, you know. I "read you like and open book", as we say in the old country).
            So, again, pls provide me with a reference to a credible scientific source proving polio was extant before 19th century.

          • Dorit Reiss

            Just did. The fact that an anti vaccine activist doesn't like the source doesn't make it go away.

            And thank you for so nicely demonstrating my earlier point: lacking credible evidence, antivaxers try for invective instead. It's not really a substitute, but it's all they have.

          • Tony Morris

            Dorit, pls provide a reference to a peer-reviewed scientific article providing proof that polio was extant before 19th century.
            Do you consider the sentence "It is likely that polio has plagued humans for thousands of years. An Egyptian carving from around 1400 BCE depicts a young man with a leg deformity similar to one caused by polio." appearing on some web-site a scientific proof?

          • Tuki

            that's funny, coming from a guy who thinks YOUTUBE is a scientific sourse of information...ha ha

            word is he's behind one of the biggest MLM scams ever in the country. now moved to some other quacky suppelment business and he need some MORE SICK CHILDREN to sell that S#$t to their parents...

          • Tony Morris

            Bla-bla... You too trying to help Dorit evade humiliating herself?

          • Tuki

            i suggest you tell us who you are and what is your workplace and profession. we already know you're not a scholar. so i'm guessing either some homeopath is paying you, or you're selling something yourself. seems like a lot of effort to make baby's vulnerable to disease... what's in it for you?

          • Tony Morris

            Hahaha.. very funny. Why would any alternative practitioner pay me? They make lots of money treating vaccine-injured kids!

          • Tony Morris

            @doritreiss:disqus - again:
            Dorit, pls provide a reference to a peer-reviewed scientific article providing proof that polio was extant before 19th century.
            Do you consider the sentence "It is likely that polio has plagued humans for thousands of years. An Egyptian carving from around 1400 BCE depicts a young man with a leg deformity similar to one caused by polio." appearing on some web-site a scientific proof?

          • Tony Morris

            @doritreiss:disqus - can't say "Sorry, I was wrong (yet again)", Dorit? or do you have the scientific reference to prove yours (And Keren's) false statements?

          • tonya

            seriously? "alternative practitioner pay me? They make lots of money treating vaccine-injured kids!"?
            do you really believe that?
            seems stupid to ask Dorit for "peer-reviewed scientific article " if you just admitted you believe in CHARLATANS.

            or... are you one yourself???
            WHO PAYS YOU?

          • tonya

            and if you think BIG-PHARMA is paying a law professor to publish comments, whay wont BIG-ALTERNATIVEMED pay you? if the alternative charlatans make so much money they don't need you, how come the rich pharma companies need dorit? do you not realize the stupidity of your own argument?

          • Tony Morris

            Troll. snort...

          • Tony Morris

            Troll. snort.

          • Mike Stevens

            Yeah, they make lots of money milking gullible people who they have convinced have "vaccine damaged" kids, you are right there!

          • Mike Stevens

            Considering peer-reviewed scientific articles were unknown before the 19th century it seems rather a hard ask to require one before you accept polio existed before then.

            However, there does seem to be reasonable evidence polio was an endemic, sporadic disease prior to that time, and only started to become an epidemic disease consequent to demographic changes and "hygiene" changes within the last 200 years.
            http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1473032/

          • Tony Morris

            And your proof for the author claim that:
            " Poliomyelitis has been with us for thousands of years, at least since the days of the ancient Egyptian pharaohs."?

            Since you have provided no proof, then obviously you agree with me that the above claim is not scientific, but rather the fruits of an imaginative mind.

          • Mike Stevens

            All you wanted was evidence polio existed before the 19th Century.
            I have provided that.

            Now why don't you make up your mind about what you want. You aren't a 5 year old (I hope)

      • Tony Morris

        ..And I take it that you agree with my 2 other comments.
        Thanks, Dorit.

    • Mike Stevens

      Of course there is herd immunity with IPV.
      By rendering populations immune, it stops any polio that is introduced from spreading.

      Your "last question"???
      I somehow doubt it, and am not holding my breath.

      • Tony Morris

        No herd immunity in IPV, Mike.
        True, the vaccine pushers are withholding that information from the public...

        • Mike Stevens

          Just retelling your lie doesn't make it true, Tony.

          • Tony Morris

            OK, Mike, let's play the 'if' game, shall we?
            So...if IPV doesn't confer herd immunity, as I've written, you agree with my conclusion that Polio virus must be abundant in the US/Europe as there's slim chance it wasn't exported there from the like of Pakistan?
            Also, _if_ IPV doesn't confer herd immunity, my assertion that the vaccine pushers are withholding this information, as even a knowledgeable person like yourself is not aware of it, stands?.

            Do we agree on this if's?

          • Tony Morris

            @disqus_0bT5QNRHDf:disqus - would you care to answer?

          • Tony Morris

            @disqus_0bT5QNRHDf:disqus ?? Would you care to apologize for your false statement above?
            "Just retelling your lie doesn't make it true, Tony."

          • Mike Stevens

            Herd immunity and IPV:
            http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1766724

            This is quite a good little number about herd immunity - even you might understand it, though I'm not going to hold my breath:
            https://www.inkling.com/read/gordis-epidemiology-5th/chapter-2/herd-immunity

            It gives polio vaccine as an example of herd immunity in action.
            "However, even inactivated poliovirus vaccine (IPV), which does not produce secondary immunity (does not spread the virus), can produce herd immunity if enough of the population is immunized; even those who are not immunized will be protected because the chain of transmission in the community has been interrupted."
            There are even charts and stuff for the cognitively-challenged.

          • Tony Morris

            Mike, Did you not read the article you are commenting on?
            Here's what the author had to say:
            "First, Salk invented IPV, the inactivated polio vaccine, made from dead virus. It could never cause the disease itself, but because it was injected into the muscles, it had one slight drawback: it was metabolised before reaching the gut, and thus recipients exposed to polio could harbour the virus in their intestines without ever getting sick. Such carriers could still pass on polio, through their faeces, to other carriers, and cause the disease in anyone who was not vaccinated."

            Now, either the author (and the Israeli MoH) are wrong, in which case the OPV vaccination operation was completely unnecessary, or YOU are wrong.
            Can't have it both ways. Either IPV provides sufficient herd-immunity to stop virus transmission - or it doesn't.

            Now, if u claim that author and Moh got it wrong - then fine. You'll be proving my point of their views being unscientific.
            If you claim you were wrong then an apology is in place for calling me a liar.
            If you fail to apologize or try to evade the issue - then I'll stop debating with you and give you the troll treatment from now on.

          • Mike Stevens

            I'm not here to conform to your blatantly biased antivaccine agenda.
            I'm just pointing out that IPV confers herd immunity.
            And provided evidence that it does.

            Now, if your idea is that you think the author implies IPV does not provide herd immunity then your beef is surely with her, and not me.

            BTW, can you tell us which vaccines apart from OPV can cause acute flaccid paralysis?
            I have asked you about 5 times now since you made this claim, and don't see any response from you.

    • Dorit Reiss

      You misunderstand the idea of herd immunity. By preventing the disease from catching hold, it protects those unvaccinated, for whatever reason. IPV certainly d

      • Tony Morris

        So, tell me Dorit... If a person is vaccinated with IPV, and later, say a year later, is exposed to the polio virus, will s/he be able to transfer the virus to another person? a Yes/No answer will suffice, thank you.

        • Dorit Reiss

          Unless that person is in the rare minority that suffers vaccine failure, the person should not infect others. I still saw no evidence from you, on anything but a case of ADEM you tried to claim was polio.

          • Tony Morris

            Well, I'm not referring to vaccine failure, that for sure.

            So tell me Dorit, if your statement above is valid, why did the Israeli MoH chose to vaccinate all kids with OPV? They claimed 96% of the kids already protected with IPV, Why vaccinate them with OPV, then?

          • Dorit Reiss

            To protect others. IPV provides here immunity: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/1766724/

          • Tony Morris

            So, you agree that IPV doesn't "protect others"?

          • Dorit Reiss

            See above. IPV provides herd immunity.

          • Tony Morris

            Dorit, you have tough time reading English?
            I ask you "So, you agree that IPV doesn't "protect others"?" and you answer "IPV provides herd immunity."

            I'll repeat my question and please don't try to evade it:
            "Do you agree that IPV doesn't "protect others"?"

            Simple logic you know.. If IPV protects others, then why vaccinate also with OPV, and if it doesn't "protect others" how can it confer herd immunity?

          • Dorit Reiss

            I am sorry you find the concept of herd immunity so challenging. Let me explain again. Virus needs host. If enough people are vaccinated, it cannot catch hold. That way, the vaccinated people from a ring that pr

          • Tony Morris

            So, I'll ask again the question you evaded above:

            " If a person is vaccinated with IPV, and later, say a year later, is exposed to the polio virus, will s/he be able to transfer the virus to another person? a Yes/No answer will suffice, thank you." (not considering vaccine failure).

            Pls be so kind as to answer it this time around.

          • Dorit Reiss

            Again, I'm sorry you are having such trouble with the answer. I'm sure other people will understand it.

          • Tony Morris

            Evasive again, Dorit... I must be settings a world record here.
            In each and every thread in this comments section you evaded my questions.
            No wonder you don't show up in the Israeli scene....

          • Richi

            Remind us, again, what was your answer regarding who are ypu anyway and what kind of academic degree you own?
            Oh right... you are evading answering those questions.
            So... who pays you? Is it some big alt-med company or are you a freelancer charlatan?

          • Tony Morris

            Hrrrrr, down Richi. The grown-ups are having a serious discussion here.

          • Dorit Reiss

            Maybe it wasn't clear how IPV can stop polio in Europe & the Americas but not in Israel.
            It is true that IPV does not provide full immunity to the gut as OPV does, but it does shorten the carrying period and the amount of virus shed by the carrier, this way provide a limiting factor on the spread of the virus.
            Tony assumes wrongly that "A single Polio carrier will be enough to spread the disease in the entire continent" - it doesn't work that way and a single carrier will be blocked by the limiting factor impose on it by the IPV.
            However the case in Israel was not so and polio got a foothold - in that case there is no other way but to vaccinate with OPV.

          • Tony Morris

            Oh, Dorit, I see someone was able to put some sense into you.
            So, you now DO admit that IPV is not sufficient to block spread of polio virus. (BTW, where's the "I'm Sorry, Tony, I was wrong!)?

            Now, pls do tell us on what scientific reference(s) do you base your assumption that in Europe/USA (as opposed to Israel) "a single carrier will be blocked by the limiting factor impose on it by the IPV"?
            Our growing audience (some old admirers of you, Dorit) are keen to see the scientific proof for your wild assumption.

          • Dorit Reiss

            You were wrong before to claim IPV does not provide herd immunity, you are still wrong, and repeating the claim. Since I demonstrated with multiple sources that that's the case, kindly retract.

            How do we know IPV does that? Aside from the article before, note the absence of wild poliovirus cases in Europe for decades.

          • Tony Morris

            Dorit, evading again? Pls do provide a straight answer to this:

            Now, pls do tell us on what scientific reference(s) do you base your assumption that in Europe/USA (as opposed to Israel) "a single carrier will be blocked by the limiting factor impose on it by the IPV"?

            (Do I need to explain to you what a scientific reference means? I know you don't have a science degree, but still..)

            And what about my apology? You did state previously:
            "Let me explain again. Virus needs host. If enough people are vaccinated, it cannot catch hold. "
            and then, after discussing this with Keren(?) you write:
            "It is true that IPV does not provide full immunity to the gut as OPV does, but it does shorten the carrying period and the amount of virus shed by the carrier"
            I small "Sorry, I was wrong", would suffice.

          • Dorit Reiss

            Projection, again? You have made numerous inaccurate claims - starting with the false claim that there is no herd immunity from IPV. You supported none. If we are talking about apology, kindly apologize for your misstatements.

            If you are unable to support your claims, retract them. So far, I was the only one providing evidence in this thread.

            If all you have is invective and conspiracy theories, well, readers can draw their conclusions.

          • Tony Morris

            Dorit, why won't you answer this question:

            Now, pls do tell us on what scientific reference(s) do you base your assumption that in Europe/USA (as opposed to Israel) "a single carrier will be blocked by the limiting factor impose on it by the IPV"?

            it's the third time I ask you to.

            You are aware that the author herself admitted that IPV doen't stop polio virus spreading? Have you even bothered to read the article before claiming Keren is a hero, and bla bla? Because she writes:
            "First, Salk invented IPV, the inactivated polio vaccine, made from dead virus. It could never cause the disease itself, but because it was injected into the muscles, it had one slight drawback: it was metabolised before reaching the gut, and thus recipients exposed to polio could harbour the virus in their intestines without ever getting sick. ***Such carriers could still pass on polio, through their faeces, to other carriers, and cause the disease in anyone who was not vaccinated.***"

            ** is the place were you bang your head against the nearset wall, Dorit...

            So, maybe you should PM keren and ask her advice on the mess you got yourself into:

            Now, pls do tell us on what scientific reference(s) do you base your assumption that in Europe/USA (as opposed to Israel) "a single carrier will be blocked by the limiting factor impose on it by the IPV"?

          • Dorit Reiss

            You are, again, trying to deflect from the fact they your statements were shown false. You claimed IPV cannot lead to herd immunity: false. Where is the apology? You claimed children were injured by OPV

          • Dorit Reiss

            Before you ask for anore work on anybody else's part, support your claim or admit the value of IPV and the need for the polio vaccines.

            Adding questions on top of invective and conspiracy theories really doesn't make your attack on this article stronger. And demanding anyone else retract, without stepping up and apologizing for your errors, is problematic.

          • Tony Morris

            Here it is, straight from the horse's mouth (talented, devoted, selfless doctor):

            "Such carriers could still pass on polio, through their faeces, to other carriers, and cause the disease in anyone who was not vaccinated".
            Is this clear enough for you Dorit or you're going to find some other excuse for evading my request to provide proof for:

            Now, pls do tell us on what scientific reference(s) do you base your assumption that in Europe/USA (as opposed to Israel) "a single carrier will be blocked by the limiting factor impose on it by the IPV"?

            And, pls do share with your admirer club: are you evading my question again and again because you're getting paid by the word?

          • Dorit Reiss

            A. That quote does not support your claim of no herd immunity from IPV. B. With all my respect for Dr. Landsman, that's not peer reviewed.

            Support your claims or apologize and retract.

          • Tony Morris

            So, you're saying the talented Dr. Landsman, the brave Dr. Landsman is wrong on this one?
            Or you're saying she's right but she's not peer-reviewed (but talented all the same)?
            Because you do understand that Dr. Landsman is aligned on this with Israeli MoH (actually she's their "golden girl", as she can communicate to the masses, they think)? If she's wrong, then MoH was wrong to vaccinate all those Israeli kids with OPV. IPV confers herd immunity and it IS enough.
            So, Dorit, either you are wrong or Keren and MoH were wrong - which is it?

          • Dorit Reiss

            Still unable to support your claim that IPV has no herd immunity, I note, and still trying to distract. That quote doesn't support you.

          • Dorit Reiss

            And while we are at it? I pointed out the lack of wild polio virus in the U.S. And Europe for a long time, with use of IPV, although, as you point out, we have travelers coming in. You want to claim herd immunity doesn't work, in the face of that, you really need to provide evidence. You apparently cannot. You keep trying to distract from that.

          • Tony Morris

            Well, we'll get to that once you decide whether IPV confers herd immunity (and therefore vaccinating Israeli kids with OPV was unwarranted) or it doesn't, in which case you need to explain how come there are no polio virus found in EU/US.
            So which is it?

          • Dorit Reiss

            Your questions were answered patiently and extensively. We will resume the discussion when you either provide credible evidence or retract the false claims. Readers, I'm sure, can dare their own conclusions from your refusal to do so and your attempts to distract from that.

          • Tony Morris

            Is this 1984, Dorit? Do u think you can reverse people's mind but just saying day is night and night is day?
            You are aware that there are 3 other topics that you evade:
            1. what are the rewards you get for spending your life selling vaccines?
            2. Scientific proof that polio was extant pre-19th century.
            3. You didn't even bothered to answer one of my comments, per Landsman quote::
            "That’s because people were exposed to poliovirus (which spreads through faeces) as infants, and built immunity against it from the start."
            Again, there's absolutely NO scientific proof for this claim. It's just a story told by vaccine-pushers. I challenge the author to provide scientific proof for her claim."
            4. And here, you evade (5 times already) deciding whether IPV protect from polio virus spread (in which case Landsman is wrong stating it doesn't and Israeli MoH wrong to vaccinate kids with OPV) or IPV doesn't, in which case you have no scientific explanation nor proof why polio virus is not spreading in EU/US.
            5. You evaded stating whether you think OPV-alleged injury should be investigated and what constitutes an appropriate investigation.

            Well, basically you evaded all the topics we have discussed... I think you've had a tough day at work, Dorit.
            (I'm copying this message to a fresh sub-thread, so it'll be easier for you to keep evading while still making money...

          • Tony Morris

            Oh, and pls be so kind as to share this knowledge with your friend @disqus_0bT5QNRHDf:disqus, will you?
            He called me a liar for stating this truth...

          • Dorit Reiss

            Let me reiterate. You have made a number of statements, most of them incorrect. You supported none. On the one time you provided support it did not support your claim: an ADEM case rather than polio. Start supporting your claims with credible evidence for those you have them and admit your many errors and retract the rest, please.

    • Richi

      the readers should note that the Sunflower with the pseudonym "Tony Morris" is actually an Israeli anti-vaxxer Quack whos life goal is to frighten the ignorant and the innocent from science-based medicine.

      • Tony Morris

        Bla-bla... If you have good answers to the questions @doritreiss:disqus has evaded - let's see them.

        • Richi

          "Bla Bla" was exactly what I thought about your "questions"! what a coincidence, ha?
          I think it's hilarious that you, who don't have a single science degree, let alone a published peer-reviewed scientific paper, are commenting here demanding "answers".

          • Tony Morris

            Well, the nice things about my questions is that Dorit seems to avoid answering them straight.
            And this was my last message to you, as obviously you are just trying to bloat this discussion thread.

          • Richi

            Yet another hilarious repsonse from the sunflower! Dorit is the one avoiding questions? What a joke! Its you whos hiding his name and (lack of) education and of course- he sourse of your pay check.
            Please stop avoiding questions, sir ;)

          • tonya

            LOL

  • Tony Morris

    Here are the topics @Dorit Reiss evaded:

    1. What are the tangible rewards you get for spending your life selling vaccines?

    2. Do you have a scientific proof that polio was extant pre-19th century?

    3. You didn't even bothered to answer one of my comments, per Landsman quote:
    "That’s because people were exposed to poliovirus (which spreads through faeces) as infants, and built immunity against it from the start."
    Again, there's absolutely NO scientific proof for this claim. It's just a story told by vaccine-pushers. I challenge the author to provide scientific proof for her claim."

    4. You evade (5 times already) deciding whether IPV protect from polio virus spread (in which case Landsman is wrong stating it doesn't and Israeli MoH wrong to vaccinate kids with OPV) or IPV doesn't, in which case you have no scientific explanation nor proof why polio virus is not spreading in EU/US.

    5. You evaded stating whether you think OPV-alleged injury should be investigated and what constitutes an appropriate investigation.

    Well, basically you evaded all the topics we have discussed... I think you've had a tough day at work, Dorit.

    • Dorit Reiss

      Using the pharma shill gambit is a common antivaccine tactic when they are unable to support their claims with evidence or arguments. It's not a good substitute, and here, as usual, it's false: nobody pays me to comment online.

      As readers can see if they want to wade through the thread, the commentator's other points have, in fact, been addressed. Whether he is unable to understand the answers, rejects them because they don't fit his worldview, or is trying to deflect from his many errors doesn't make them go away.

      In contrast, the author made multiple claims shown false or that he was unable to support. This comment is his attempt to distract from them.

      Both IPV and OPV offer strong protection against polio, though both have different strengths and advantages. While OPV causes paralysis rarely - every 2.7 million doses - when used after IPV even that small risk either disappears or all but disappears. The author claimed otherwise and could not support his claim.

      Israel used OPV to prevent the wild virus taking hold. Both IPV and OPV offer herd immunity. The commentator claimed otherwise. He was provided with evidence and is trying to deflect.

      Readers can decide whether invective, conspiracy theories and attempt to place the burden the proof on others while not supporting claims substitute, in their eyes, for evidence.

      • Tony Morris

        well, Dorit, either you are not telling the truth or you are hallucinating saying you answered all my questions in the thread. Pls show us were are the answers to issues 2, 3 and 5. no answers at all...

        On issue 4, you still evade - is IPV protecting from polio virus spread or not? Your double-speak befits a paid mercenary and not a truth seeker like you are trying to portray yourself to be.

        So, you expect us to believe you on issue 1?
        You expect us to believe you spend dozens of hours every week selling vaccines - and you do it for nothing?
        Quite funny, actually that you think people are that dumb....

        • Dorit Reiss

          Readers can read themselves.

          • Dorit Reiss

            And again: no evidence for the anti vaxer's claims provided: just an attempt to delegitimize his interlocutor, by implying a conspiracy (he can't provide evidence for that either, because like his other claims, it's untrue).

          • Tony Morris

            I have evidence for every claim I've made here. Each and every one. but I don't really need them, do I?
            Your evasive tactics showed your true colors.
            Still you haven't answered 2 3 and 5. Your answer to 1 could be accepted only by kindergarten kids, and you haven't yet decided whether or not IPV stops transmission or not (4).
            Yes, the score is clear for the readers to see...

          • Tony Morris

            So, 'nough whining, Dorit, and just provide answers, and straight answers to the questions you are evading...

            BTW, are you getting paid by word, by the message, by the hour, or a global sum?

          • Dorit Reiss

            And again: the pharma shill gambit really isn't a substitute to having evidence or arguments on your side.

          • Tony Morris

            Just that you won't get lost in the thread, dear, here are the questions you wouldn't answer (I'll give you that you have "answered" question 1, though we both know it wasn't truthful):
            -----------------
            2. Do you have a scientific proof that polio was extant pre-19th century?

            3. You didn't even bother to answer one of my comments, per Landsman quote:
            "That’s because people were exposed to poliovirus (which spreads through faeces) as infants, and built immunity against it from the start."
            Again, there's absolutely NO scientific proof for this claim. It's just a story told by vaccine-pushers. I challenge the author to provide scientific proof for her claim."

            4. You evade (5 times already) deciding whether IPV protect from polio virus spread (in which case Landsman is wrong stating it doesn't and Israeli MoH wrong to vaccinate kids with OPV) or IPV doesn't, in which case you have no scientific explanation nor proof why polio virus is not spreading in EU/US.

            5. You evaded stating whether you think OPV-alleged injury should be investigated and what constitutes an appropriate investigation.
            -------------------
            Why wouldn't a mother, a truth-seeker answer these questions? A pharma paid mercenary wouldn't, that's for sure.

          • Dorit Reiss

            Your attempt - again - to distract from your lack of evidence for your claim by repeating questions that have been addressed below and trying to imply they were not answered - instead of actually supporting your claims, any of them, with evidence, was noted.

          • Tony Morris

            So, why don't you just answer my questions, Dorit? Or provide reference to where have you answered them?
            For example, where have you answered this one:

            2. Do you have a scientific proof that polio was extant pre-19th century?

            Tadam, tadam, tadam... Waiting for the Dorit to evade this one - YET AGAIN!

          • tonya

            actually, you're the one evading... WHO PAYS YOU?

          • Mike Stevens

            And you have a lot of outstanding questions that you have refused to answer Tony.
            I wonder why? Are you unable to, because your original claims were lies?

            I'll try again (in response to your claim that vaccines other than oral polio vaccine cause similar neurological damage to clinical polio):

            What other vaccines cause asymmetric flaccid paralysis, Tony?

            Ignoring the question won't make it go away you know.

          • Tony Morris

            Don't strawman me Mike. i'm talking about soft paralysis, polio-like. AFP.
            Now, several vaccines cause AFP.
            Flu vaccine, for one. there are 3-4 others. Check the product sheets yourself.

          • Mike Stevens

            Don't see acute flaccid paralysis on the Flu vax insert.

            Now if you tell us which the other vaccines are, then I'll even do your homework for you and check them out.
            But we need names.

            Which vaccines, Tony?

          • tonya

            Who pays you tony?
            Youer an uneducated person trolling everywhere. Looks like its your job. Unlike the author or dorit, you dont have a proffesion or a pay check from a respectable institute (you know,like a university. Oh, right, you dont know...).
            Tell us whos paying you for trying to frighten parents from real science based medicine. Is it Big-AltMed?

          • Tony Morris

            Dear tonya, did Dorit send you to cover-up the mess she left here? yet another proof she doesn't have answers to REAL questions.

          • Mike Stevens

            Not answering questions, huh?
            Why so aggressive with the insistence that people instantly answer your demands, yet so reluctant to answer any questions yourself?

          • Mike Stevens

            Well then Tony, it should be simple to provide a screenshot of the post on the "other forum" where Dorit personally "summoned some stooges" to help her on this forum then, won't it?

            If you can't, then we must conclude you were lying when you stated that Dorit had done exactly that.

          • Tony Morris

            Well, let's get Dorit admitting or Denying this fact and then I'll pull my evidence. How about it Mikey? Will you now ask Dorit to admit? Or will you find some other evasion tactics?
            You see Mikey, I have nobody here backing me up, right? And Dorit already have the 4 of you... Sign of organized crime, I'd say...

          • Mike Stevens

            I get it - YOU claim that Dorit has specifically summoned stooges from another forum to come and post here.
            I ask for the proof.
            So YOU refuse to answer, and then accuse me of evasion?

            I must admit, if there were internet prizes for attempted chutzpah in the face of total failure, I'd give you one.

          • Tony Morris

            Well, "Conspiracy" is always what a pharma-shill resorts too when s/he evades the though questions, isn't it Dorit?

          • Tony Morris

            Well, the empty spaces tells the story loud and clear: a pharma shill!

            Now tell me, Dorit - why did you feel the need to call upon help? Were you feeling I'm a bit over-sized for you?
            Or are you going to claim that the 3 stooges appearing here all of a sudden, out of nowhere, zero understanding of vaccine issues - weren't invited by you?

          • Dorit Reiss

            So now, other people commenting on a public thread are also a conspiracy? Interesting.

          • Tony Morris

            Not conspiracy, Dorit. You just summoned them. Simple as that. Why can't you admit it?

          • Tony Morris

            So, Dorit, are you denying that these 3 stooges were summoned through a forum in which you participate? Think twice before you answer...

  • Tony Morris

    Dorit Reiss Looks like we're done below. Now, how about discussing one of my favorite topics: (the non-existent) vaccine safety.

    My claim is this: there's no known safety profile for any of the routine childhood vaccines given in the US (in plain words: their safety isn't known).

    There are 2 reasons for this:

    1. The clinical trials of all vaccines are designed deliberately as to obscure the real rate of adverse events (AEs).
    2. Once the vaccine is marketed, there's no adequate AE reporting system in the world to track down the real rate of vaccine AEs.

    The bottom line is that vaccine safety is myth, not science. Anybody who states "vaccines are safe" or "vaccines do much more good than harm" is either unaware of the facts or a blatant liar.

    Now, dear, care for another role in the hay? (feel free to bring here all your cronies, I'll take all of you single-handedly).

    • Dorit Reiss

      Once again, this is simply untrue. Vaccine safety is not only supported by extensive clinical trials, but monitored by many governments all over and studied by universities from all over the world.

      A study just came out in the U.S.. http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/early/2014/06/26/peds.2014-1079.abstract. A meta review looking at adverse events and showing that while nothing is 100% safe, vaccine adverse events are extremely rare and their risks much smaller than their benefits. For those who prefer an analysis, here is one by a science blogger: http://www.skepticalraptor.com/skepticalraptorblog.php/vaccine-adverse-events-rare-vast-benefits-outweigh-risks/

      Similarly, a 2013 IOM report reviewed the data - I'm providing the report because it's easier than having readers go through many, many studies, but they are cited in it. It concluded: "Upon reviewing stakeholder concerns and scientific literature regarding the entire childhood immunization schedule, the IOM committee finds no evidence that the schedule is unsafe." http://www.iom.edu/~/media/Files/Report%20Files/2013/Childhood-Immunization-Schedule/ChildhoodImmunizationScheduleandSafety_RB.pdf

      In light of this abundant data, if you want to claim vaccines are harmful, you should provide some credible evidence of serious problems.

      • Dorit Reiss

        For those who want to know more about the testing system in the U.S., here is a description. Before the vaccine gets on the market in the U.S., it goes through a multi-stage process that involves:
        A. Discovering the germ behind a disease and figuring out how to vaccinate.
        B. Animal studies of safety and effectiveness.
        C. Application for an Invesitgative New Drug license to FDA.

        Only at this point can human studies be done, and only at this point does the CDC described process start:http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/parents/infographics/journey-of-child-vaccine.html. This process involves:
        D. Three stages of clinical trials for safety and effectiveness, including in the last stage trials in thousands of volunteers over a period of years.
        E. Concomitant studies to show it's safe and effective with the rest of the schedule.
        F. Approval by multiple committees in different institutions of placing it on the schedule - where safety, effectiveness, and cost are considered.

        No vaccine gets on the market unless the benefits far outweigh the risks: because vaccines are given to healthy children, the bar is high. That's why the number of real serious harms is so low anti-vaccine activists have to resort to uninvestigated reports in VAERS (http://www.harpocratesspeaks.com/2013/11/vaers-few-things-we-need-to-discuss.html) to inflate them. Can problems arise later? Yes. That's why we have:

        G. Post marketing surveillance - monitoring of doses given to millions of children, using multiple systems.
        H. Studies by researchers in universities.

        Nobody takes vaccine safety lightly. But when scientists look, they actually look: they do not make up problems that are not there, and they do not connect vaccines to problems when the evidence is otherwise, when the evidence is that vaccines do not cause them.

        Nothing is 100% safe - but this elaborate process helps minimize harms from vaccines and insure their benefits really, really, far outweigh their small risks.

        • Tony Morris

          Great, another roll in the hay with the charming vaccine pusher.
          Now, Dorit, pls note that we are not discussing whether vaccine are risky here, rather we are discussing whether their risk (i.e. safety profile) is *known*.
          Now, pls be so kind as to answer this question:
          Do you agree that none of the childhood vaccines ever tested in a phase III clinical trial were the control group received a real placebo (i.e. passive solution) and not another vaccine?
          If you don't agree, pls provide ONE example of a childhood vaccine pre-marketing clinical trial where the control group received saline placebo (or other inert solution).

          If you do not provide such evidence, then the above is proven to be correct and the consequence is that there's no way to calculate the real AE rate for the trialed vaccine.

          (You are not going to evade this one, too, are you?)

          • Tony Morris

            Hmmm. Evasive again. Dorit?
            You know you are going to lose this one, right?

          • Tony Morris

            OK, @doritreiss:disqus , now both of us know that you don't have an answer to the vaccine safety issue. Not that I'd thought otherwise.
            See you in the next round.
            PS: I pity you.

          • tonya

            You dont know anything about vaccine safety. You never even went to college.you know nothing about research. Now Whos paying you tony? Are you an mlm agent? Are you selling homeopathy?

          • Tony Morris

            Dear tonya, do you want to answer the question the Dorit has left unanswered? Pls do.

          • tonya

            i see you like to offer deals, so lets make a deal- ill answer whatever you want- right after you tell us who you are, what is your academic backround (sorry, google university doesnt count) and WHO PAYS YOU.
            deal?

          • Tony Morris

            Dear tonya, let's see now:
            Dorit is selling vaccines (directly), which is a multi-billion industry backed up by multi-billion government budget. There are tens of thousands of people around the world (if not more) making a VERY nice living off this industry, many of them marketing and selling vaccines.
            So why would she work for free?
            On the other hand, I sell nothing (never did) and as such not backed up (and not rewarded) by anyone.
            Do you of anyone who will donate to my cause, which is free and truthful info about vaccination to all - pls be so kind as to refer them to me.

            Now, you little piece of @$&^, this was the last time I'll ever respond to you. You can copy/paste this comment in the future - answering yourself.

          • Tony Morris

            One more thing - I'll be more than happy to discuss my motives with Dorit if she cares to (and not with any attack dog which she has summoned to defend her).

          • Mike Stevens

            So, you are not only evasive and untruthful, but rude and obnoxious to boot.

          • Andrew Lazarus

            Go to any anti-vax site, and there will be ads pushing sugar pills as better than those awful vaccines. You think quacks like Mercola and Humphries [no links on purpose] are in it for their health? Heh! They make big money—more money than Big Pharma makes from vaccines.

            To take on one substantive point, anti-vax cranks never explain what happened with the before-and-after morbidity statistics after vaccine introduction. They try to fool us with mortality stats, which were affected by the Iron Lung, by Medevac helicopters, and by a lot of other Big Medicine interventions. But as to why measles almost disappeared after vaccination, radio silence. איזו הפתעה

            [By the way, Tony, don't bother coming up with your little Hebrew tag lines for me. I don't need Google Translate for them.]

  • Tony Morris

    For the record -
    Dorit Reiss has fled and left some lowly trolls to do the clean-up after her...

    She knows all too well that discussing vaccine safety topics further with me will:

    a. Highlight the fact that vaccine safety is a myth.
    b. Expose her even more as the pharma sales person that she is, as she's well aware of a) above, but still chooses to sell pharma propaganda.

    • Mike Stevens

      Your notion that posts on this forum provide some form of "record" are laughable.

      If any "record" is evident here, it is that Dorit has studiously provided numerous scientific citations to back up her well-reasoned arguments and posting of factual data, and that you have done nothing except try and get people to dance to your own little, tiny-minded antivaccine tune, and get very upset when they don't rise to the bait.

      • Tony Morris

        Bla, bla, Mike.
        You too trying to rescue Dorit from the inevitable?
        Looks like our favorite pharma shill, needs all the support she can master from her colleagues.
        Why don't you leave Dorit to do one small thing: say the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth?
        In a public debate such as this one - only the untruthful needs assistance from her "buddies".

  • Dorit Reiss

    On vaccine safety: Vaccine safety is not only supported by extensive clinical trials, but monitored by many governments all over and studied by universities from all over the world.

    A study just came out in the U.S.. http://pediatrics.aappublicati.... A meta review looking at adverse events and showing that while nothing is 100% safe, vaccine adverse events are extremely rare and their risks much smaller than their benefits. For those who prefer an analysis, here is one by a science blogger: http://www.skepticalraptor.com...

    Similarly, a 2013 IOM report reviewed the data - I'm providing the report because it's easier than having readers go through many, many studies, but they are cited in it. It concluded: "Upon reviewing stakeholder concerns and scientific literature regarding the entire childhood immunization schedule, the IOM committee finds no evidence that the schedule is unsafe."http://www.iom.edu/~/media/Fil...

    In light of this abundant data, if anyone wants to claim vaccines are harmful, you should provide some credible evidence of serious problems. The anti-vaccine activists on this thread have been unable to do so: all they have is conspiracy theories, unfounded claims, and invective.

    • Tony Morris

      Dorit, my dear, why are you afraid to debate me?
      If science is on your side, surely you have good answers to the following, or do you?

      My claim is this: there's no known safety profile for any of the routine childhood vaccines given in the US (in plain words: their safety isn't known).

      There are 2 reasons for this:

      1. The clinical trials of all vaccines are designed deliberately as to obscure the real rate of adverse events (AEs).
      2. Once the vaccine is marketed, there's no adequate AE reporting system in the world to track down the real rate of vaccine AEs.

      The bottom line is that vaccine safety is myth, not science. Anybody who states "vaccines are safe" or "vaccines do much more good than harm" is either unaware of the facts or a blatant liar.

      • Dorit Reiss

        As readers probably realize by now,

        A. Our information on vaccine risks comes from far beyond clinical trials - it is monitored by government (actually, by multiple governments, since the same vaccines are used by different countries) and studied by different teams of researchers in universities etc'. We have extensive information on vaccine harms from a variety of sources with a variety of funding sources. Believing that we don't know enough about something that well studied requires, well, creative beliefs.

        B. The reason many vaccines don't make it onto market - for example, dengue fever, HIV and malaria vaccines have been failing clinical trials - is because clinical trials are so careful and serious. Getting a vaccine past clinical trials and then having it pulled off the market for safety concerns - as happened, for example, for the first rotavirus vaccine, Rotashield: http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vpd-vac/rotavirus/vac-rotashield-historical.htm - is certainly not a good thing for a company.

        C. The Rotavirus problem, and the problem with narcolepsy in scandinavia - both rare problems, but still problems that were discovered, transparently published in the media, and steps taken towards them, shows what happens when there is a real vaccine safety problem - and gives the lie to the claim of lack of monitoring or a conspiracy of silence on the part of anti-vaccine activists.

        In short: one one side, we have tens of thousands of studies, from multiple sources, that look at vaccine safety. On the other, we have a minority of anti-vaccine activists who provide no credible data for their claims, and seem to assume that bad manners, conspiracy theories, and ignoring answers they were given are an appropriate substitute. It's not exactly a contest.

        Scientists look at data. They highlight it when there's a specific problem with a vaccine. But there is a reason that on the safety of the recommended childhood vaccine there is no scientific debate. It's the same reason astronomers stopped debating whether the earth is round: the data is simply overwhelming.

        • Tony Morris

          Do you deny the fact that in all large-scale clinical trials of childhood vaccines the control group never get a saline placebo or other inert solution?
          A yes or no answer will suffice.

          • Mike Stevens

            Try Google, Tony.
            I am sure you know how it works.

          • Tony Morris

            I know the answer, Mike. And do does Dorit. That's why she's evading.

          • Mike Stevens

            So you know that there are placebo controlled trials.
            Why are you still stinking out this thread then?

            PS
            What were those vaccines that cause asymmetrical acute paralysis then?
            You mentioned there were vaccines that did this, but seem awfully coy about enlightening us?
            I assume that is because you lied about it, and cannot provide evidence.

          • Tony Morris

            Mike, "asymmetrical acute paralysis" is your straw man. I'm saying that vaccines cause AFP (not the same thing). I already gave you flu vaccine as one of them. Check the product sheet got GBS (which is a type of AFP).

  • Dorit Reiss

    For those who want to know more about the testing system in the U.S., here is a description. Before the vaccine gets on the market in the U.S., it goes through a multi-stage process that involves:
    A. Discovering the germ behind a disease and figuring out how to vaccinate.
    B. Animal studies of safety and effectiveness.
    C. Application for an Invesitgative New Drug license to FDA.

    Only at this point can human studies be done, and only at this point does the CDC described process start:http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pa.... This process involves:
    D. Three stages of clinical trials for safety and effectiveness, including in the last stage trials in thousands of volunteers over a period of years.
    E. Concomitant studies to show it's safe and effective with the rest of the schedule.
    F. Approval by multiple committees in different institutions of placing it on the schedule - where safety, effectiveness, and cost are considered.

    No vaccine gets on the market unless the benefits far outweigh the risks: because vaccines are given to healthy children, the bar is high. That's why the number of real serious harms is so low anti-vaccine activists have to resort to uninvestigated reports in VAERS (http://www.harpocratesspeaks.c... to inflate them. Can problems arise later? Yes. That's why we have:

    G. Post marketing surveillance - monitoring of doses given to millions of children, using multiple systems.
    H. Studies by researchers in universities.

    Nobody takes vaccine safety lightly. But when scientists look, they actually look: they do not make up problems that are not there, and they do not connect vaccines to problems when the evidence is otherwise, when the evidence is that vaccines do not cause them.

    Nothing is 100% safe - but this elaborate process helps minimize harms from vaccines and insure their benefits really, really, far outweigh their small risks.

    • Tony Morris

      Dorit Reiss is writing so many words to cover up the fact that she is afraid to debate me on the issue of vaccine safety.
      This is Dorit, folks... Just a cheap pharma shill that, when confronted with questions she can't answer, just ignores them..
      How do you sleep at night, Dorit?

      • Dorit Reiss

        Thank you for continuing the demonstration. See: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22172504 "This overview examines the types of rhetoric individuals may encounter online in order to better understand why the anti-vaccination movement can be convincing, despite lacking scientific support for their claims. Tactics and tropes commonly used to argue against vaccination are described. This includes actions such as skewing science, shifting hypotheses, censoring dissent, and attacking critics;..."

        For a more in depth analysis, for those who don't have access to the full article (it's behind a paywall), see: http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2012/01/24/tactics-and-tropes-of-the-antivaccine-mo/

        • Tony Morris

          @doritreiss:disqus Do you deny the fact that in all large-scale clinical trials of childhood vaccines the control group never get a saline placebo or other inert solution?A yes or no answer will suffice.

          • Dorit Reiss

            That varies. Some clinical trials use a saline placebo, others use a solution that includes the other ingredients but not the active ingredients (since the other ingredients are in use for years, and are well known quantity, the thing to be evaluated is the active ingredient) still others use another vaccine. The correct placebo depends on what exactly is being measured. For example, the HPV trials for Gardasil control groups included both groups that got an alum based solution and groups that got a saline solution.

            Again: the correct placebo depends on what you're looking at. You're trying to isolate the effect of the thing you're measuring from everything else - so often, a solution without the active ingredient in the vaccine is the right one. Although anti-vaccine activists try to claim that only saline is the right placebo, that's not the scientists' conclusion.

            And note above the points about clinical trials not being our only source of information about adverse events.

          • Tony Morris

            Dorit, how about sticking to the point and let go of your smoke screens? את כל כך שקופה
            Now, you are aware that in the Gardasil studies only about 5% of the control group got Saline, right? If you don't answer this - I'll take it as a yes.

            No, are you aware of any vaccine (large scale / Phase III) clinical trial for which 100% (or even 50%) of the control got saline placebo or equivalent?
            If yes - pls provide a link to such a study.
            If not, pls be honest enough to admit it.

          • Dorit Reiss

            A. I'm sorry you find my answer hard to understand. I'm sure others will understand how it answers.

            B. A quick google scholar search brings up many vaccine clinical trials using a saline placebo, http://jama.jamanetwork.com/Mobile/article.aspx?articleid=383571

          • Dorit Reiss

            Since you were answered, by the way, unless you have something substantive and supported to add, I am not going to engage anymore.

          • Tony Morris

            Evading already? Sign of the guy in the black hat, Dorit
            Now, I specifically asked one such study of ** childhood vaccinations **. Do I need to explain to you the difference?
            The study you linked to was done on adults, age 60+.
            I wrote you above:
            "Do you deny the fact that in all large-scale clinical trials of childhood vaccines the control group never get a saline placebo or other inert solution"

            Now, I take it that you don't have any such study, because you evaded my request and provided a non-childhood vaccine/trial.
            If you don't answer this - it will be just anther proof that you are evading answering questions you know hurt your propaganda.

          • Tony Morris

            So, Dorit, I'll have to wait another full day before you'll figure out an escape tactic?
            That won't help you you know... אני קורא אותך כספר הפתוח

          • Dorit Reiss

            I'm sorry you seem to think I should be at your beck and call, while you provide no support to claims and do nothing.

          • Dorit Reiss

            You're wrong about many things in this thread. Facts related to vaccines, the motives of other people, and the view that others owe you answers while you ignore questions and are unable to provide support to your claims (not that surprising, since most of them are simply wrong).

          • Tony Morris

            Chicken again, Dorit.
            I ask a you a simple question - why do you evade answering it? It's not a claim, it's a question.

            If you are a person that is interested in the truth - you'll answer. You have no real reason to. Nothing to hide. If you are a pharma shill then you have all the best reasons not to answer. You know. I know. You know that I know, Dorit. I'm sitting right between your ears.

            This is my question (in case you have missed it 3 times already):
            "Do you deny the fact that in all large-scale clinical trials of childhood vaccines the (entire) control group never get a saline placebo or other inert solution?")

          • Dorit Reiss

            The person who cannot or will not explain their claims, cannot or will not support their claims with evidence, ignores explanations why their claims are simply wrong, is not in a good position to accuse anyone of evading.

            Support your claims before you make demands. Or retract them, and apologize for misleading.

            Not to mention that I'm sure most readers would have understood my explanation of how to find an answer.

          • Mike Stevens

            I will answer.
            Yes.

            I do deny it.
            A couple of seconds with Google reveals numerous such trials. Can't you do the internet, Tony?

            Here is the first one I came across:
            http://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736%2813%2962630-6/abstract
            "Efficacy of a monovalent human-bovine (116E) rotavirus vaccine in Indian infants: a randomised, double-blind, placebo-controlled trial"

          • Tony Morris

            Mike, you are a bit slow, I know. That's probably why Dorit make 10 times more than you doing what she's doing.
            Now, a little word for you: "Saline".

          • Mike Stevens

            A few little words for you (you used them yourself, remember?)

            "or other inert solution"

            What is cute is how you constantly move the goal posts, and when someone still slots in a screamer, you pretend the goal posts weren't there in the first place, but on another pitch.

          • Tony Morris

            Mike, you are behind in the game, aren't you? OK, "other inert solution" is fine. But the word "Placebo" by itself means nothing. The industry uses it to denote (even) another vaccine given to the control group. Now, do investigate and tell us all what was that the control group did get in the rota-virus trials. It wasn't saline nor inert solution.
            Do you think Dorit missed this one, Mike? she's smarter than you, you know.

            One more thing - I'm not going to search for all your scrattered comments in the thread. If you want me to answer, open a new comment on top and put ALL your issues there.

          • Mike Stevens

            Way I read the trial they gave 3 doses of 0.5 mL saline at 4 week intervals as their placebo.

            You are the one who's slow here, Tony. Wake up, will you?

          • Tony Morris

            Pls provide a reference where it says so. Or a screen shot.
            Mike, will you say "sorry" when you're proved wrong once again?
            I tell you loud and clear - rota vaccine trials didn't use saline. They used... a secret... Dig it yourself...

          • Mike Stevens

            "One more thing - I'm not going to search for all your scrattered
            comments in the thread. If you want me to answer, open a new comment on
            top and put ALL your issues there."

            Funny, I had thought you were intelligent enough to realise that all comments made in response to any post of yours in any forum will appear under the "reply" heading in Disqus, and that all you need to do to respond yourself is click the little "reply" button.

            Still, I appreciate that this may be hard for some people, so I have indeed top-posted something for you to chew on.

          • Tony Morris

            Mike, I'm not a professional commenter, like you or Dorit. I don't get paid for it. Thanks for the tip, though. i'll look it up.

          • Andrew Lazarus

            The initial polio trial.

          • Tony Morris

            You must be joking. Do you claim that the vaccine currently marketed as IPV is the same vaccine trialed in the Francis trials? Bad you...

          • Andrew Lazarus

            I didn't realize you were "requiring" only vaccines in current use. I read what you wrote above (emphasis added) "Do you deny the fact that in all large-scale clinical trials of childhood vaccines…" and thought you mean "all". Indeed, my bad.

  • Dorit Reiss

    I would like to thank the anti-vaccine activist who decided to join the discussion again for demonstrating the points in the article: that anti-vaccine activists cannot support their claims other than with conspiracy theories and trying to paint the other side as shills.

    Readers are welcome to examine the threads below for answers to many of the anti-vaccine activist's claims. Not all: at some point, I decided not to waste my time answering someone who obviously does not understand when he was answered or cannot accept answers that do not fit his world view, and cannot provide support to any of his claims.

    Again: the data on vaccine safety is extensive. If an anti-vaccine activists wants to make a case against it, he needs to provide some credible evidence. If he cannot make his case and support it, well, that speaks to the weakness of that case.

    • Tony Morris

      Chicken, chicken, chicken...

      • Guest

        A photo of your favorite phrama shill...

      • Mike Stevens

        Yes you are, aren't you Tony.
        Found that list of vaccines that cause AFP yet, or are you going to give people the finger again?

  • Tony Morris

    To all our readers, I will know explain why @doritreiss:disqus is evading the simple question:
    "Do you deny the fact that in all large-scale clinical trials of childhood vaccines the (entire) control group never get a saline placebo or other inert solution?"

    Dorit is fully aware where is this question leading. She has seen me debating Israeli skeptics where I've used the same tactics.

    Dorit knows all too well, that I'll checkmate her in 3 moves and prove that vaccine safety is a myth, and no more. That's why she is stalling as she knows where I'm headed and she does everything to avoid facing the inevitable - admitting that vaccine safety is a myth, ergo vaccines are a big scam.

    Doing that, Dorit is proving beyond a reasonable doubt of any sane person that she's hardly a "truth seeker" but rather is motivated by very dark interests.

  • Mike Stevens

    Tony Morris has made a number of claims, none backed up by evidence, and when challenged has refused to respond. For example, one of these claims was that many vaccines can cause acute flaccid paralysis (AFP), an incredibly rare but recognised complication of oral polio vaccine. However, despite 8 or 9 attempts to get him to name these vaccines that supposedly can do this, he has avoided backing up his claim. (Well, he did mumble something about flu vaccine and the product information leaflet [but this does not mention the vaccine causes AFP], and he merely said "look them up" when asked for the names of the other vaccines he claims cause the problem. What is really amusing is that in the next post he accused others of being "evasive")

    Another specious claim is that there have never been any vaccine trials in children that used a saline or inert placebo.
    I have given examples of these trials, one in over 12,000 children half of whom received saline placebo conjugate pneumococcal vaccine.
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19483514

    Yet here he is, insisting no such trials exist, and accusing Dorit Reiss of evading an "issue" that has already been settled. Any reasonable person interested in aspects of vaccine safety would approach the question from a different perspective. Tony might get further in this debate by acknowledging the basic facts and asking thoughtful, incisive questions about vaccines, rather than alienating people by ridiculing, abusing and calling them pharma shills for presenting valid vaccine information and accusing them of evasion when he is the one who has refused to answer questions, and claiming vaccines are a "big scam" when they have demonstrably saved millions of lives. Someone doesn't help advance the case for, say, vehicle safety by telling those who benefit from them that cars are a scam, petrol engines don't exist, and that cars can't move.

    • Tony Morris

      Nice, Mike. Lets' see..

      Are you aware of Guillain-Barre Syndrom (GBS) being AFP? Wikipedia will be good enough for this:
      "Flaccid paralysis can be associated with a lower motor neuron lesion. This is in contrast to anupper motor neuron lesion, which often presents with spastic paralysis, although early on this may present with flaccid paralysis. Included in AFP's list are Poliomyelitis (Polio), Transverse myelitis, Guillain-Barré syndrome, enteroviral encephalopathy,[7] traumatic neuritis, Reye's syndrome, etc. An AFP Surveillance programme is conducted to increase case yield of poliomyelitis. This includes collection of 2 stool samples within 14 days of onset of paralysis and identification of virus. and control of the outbreak and strengthening immunisation in that area."
      https://www.google.co.il/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&rlz=1C1CHEU_iwIL509IL509&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=accute%20flaccid%20paralysis

      Are you aware flu vaccine causes GBS? Here's an example for Fluarix:

      Post-Marketing Surveillance

      Neurological disorders may have a temporal association with influenza vaccination, but no causal relationship has been established. An association between the A/New Jersey/76 swine influenza and Guillain-Barre Syndrome (GBS) has been demonstrated. More recently, an association between GBS and the influenza vaccines used in the Northern Hemisphere in the 1992-3 and 1993-4 seasons has
      been reported. Even with an estimated excess risk of 1 to 2 GBS cases per million persons vaccinated, this risk is still substantially smaller than the risk of severe influenza illness and its complications.
      -------------------

      Now, from a DT vaccine Product Sheet by Sanofi:
      NERVOUS SYSTEM The following neurologic illnesses have been reported as temporally associated with vaccine containing tetanus toxoid: neurological complications14 including cochlear lesion,15 brachial plexus neuropathies,15,16 paralysis of the radial nerve,17 paralysis of the recurrent nerve,15 accommodation paresis, Guillain-Barré syndrome (GBS), and EEG disturbances with encephalopathy.18 The IOM following review of the reports of neurologic events following vaccination with tetanus toxoid, Td or DT, concluded the evidence favored acceptance of a causal relationship between tetanus toxoid and brachial neuritis and
      GBS.10,19

      ----------------
      You need more or this is enough to prove my point?

      • Andrew Lazarus

        Are you aware that the flu itself can cause GBS? One thing to note about anti-vax cranks, they never use data from illnesses as a baseline. On their planet, in the absence of vaccines, no one gets sick.

        • Tony Morris

          One troll, at a time, pleeease!
          If Mike repeat this nonsense - I'll answer.

          But thanks you are confirming I'm correct and Mike made himself to look like an idiot by claiming all sorts of things about me..

          • Andrew Lazarus

            Um, Tony, I'm pretty sure you are the troll: copy-pasting research you don't understand, meaningless quibbling, and refusal to engage any of the evidence against you, e.g., where did measles go?

          • Tony Morris

            Lazy, did I or didn't I prove my claim that (quoting Mike):
            "For example, one of these claims was that many vaccines can cause acute flaccid paralysis (AFP), "
            (I said several not many, but never mind).
            ??
            since you haven't refuted the two quotes I've provided - I take it you agree I have backed up my claim above.

          • Andrew Lazarus

            No, Tony, this isn't some proceeding where you get to claim we've defaulted when, in your own humble opinion, you don't find our responses satisfactory. You haven't provided a list of such vaccines (one vaccine, viz. flu, is not "many", and as you perfectly well know, the reports of adverse effects following vaccinations are not "proof" in any sense whatsoever. Why, one of your fellow cranks listed as a casualty a baby who had died after vaccination in an automobile accident.

            I guess paralytic polio will exempt your kids from the IDF, but that's a big price.

          • Tony Morris

            You've been Lazy. See above - I've also quoted from DT product Sheet. Flu vax - also quote from product sheet.
            IIRC, there are 2-3 more.
            What's your excuse now, lazy?
            I'm thrilled to find out what Mike's will be.
            They sent you on mission impossible Dude. Get a real job.

          • Tony Morris

            Your comrade Dorit is very active today in Vermont. I wonder why she doesn't come here to debate me...
            Any ideas, Lazy?

          • Andrew Lazarus

            Because you are a twerp? Because you present as "evidence" data you haven’t read, and don't understand? Because you ignore counterarguments to your position? Because you ridicule other people's surnames, a sign of egregious immaturity? You come across as someone not even old enough for most of his booster shots.

            If your fingers are tired and you really need a nickname for me, Laz will do.

          • Tony Morris

            Lazy, it's because your a troll. I don't like people who lie for a living. You know, you and Dorit can lie your way out of most issues. But not this one. That's why Dorit is MIA. She knows. She saw me demonstrate it.
            Do you want to walk her path instead? Mike seems to be slightly MIA himself.

          • Tony Morris

            BTW, how come you suddenly appeared here when Dorit disappeared? (Try the truth, for once, will you)

          • Andrew Lazarus

            No idea, and that's the truth.

          • Tony Morris

            "No Idea"? that's the best you came up with?
            Why can't you just admit Dorit asked you here because she can't face me?
            See you again soon Lazy... You'll need to cover up for Dorit soon.

          • Andrew Lazarus

            Because, Tony, you're just not that important. I believe the phrase is "Legend in His Own Mind."

            Indeed, I think you care a lot more about being obnoxious than vaccines, because making assertions like this without a shred of evidence (I don't even "follow" Dorit) just makes it more obvious that antivax nuts like you don't care if your arguments are supported by anything except inchoate rage.

            I'm very pleased that recent outbreaks of vaccine-preventable diseases have put the spotlight on the dangers of the American version of your egotistical "movement", and I suspect once pertussis shows up in North Tel Aviv, that will be the beginning of thee end of your crank version.

          • Andrew Lazarus

            Tony, one distinguishing feature of antivax argumentation is copying and pasting sources without understanding, or in some cases reading them. And then re-copying and re-pasting them.

            The package insert you quote says (emphasis added) "The following neurologic illnesses have been reported as temporally associated with vaccine containing tetanus toxoid". Do you know what temporally means? Among other things, it means that there hasn't been any attempt to establish a causal relationship. As a matter of fact, no one has ever established that these effects are more common after the vaccination than they are just in general. As I mentioned, your ilk are so careless that one posted a piece including a fatality from an auto accident.

            Similarly, you quote, for some unfathomable reason, about the flu vaccine

            Even with an estimated excess risk of 1 to 2 GBS cases per million persons vaccinated this risk is still substantially smaller than the risk of severe influenza illness and its complications.

            Here someone has done the math: the additional risk of GBS from the vaccine is less than the risk of getting GBS (or worse) from an actual case of flu.

            I'm reminded of the repeated anti-vax argument that having a majority of 1600 cases of polio in the USA in 1961 being vaccine-induced (true) is somehow worse than 57,000 cases of wild polio in 1952. I try to understand why, in contrast to opposing some particular vaccine as unnecessary, ineffective, or dangerous relative to the benefit, you don't wan't vaccines to work—in the teeth of the evidence that they do. Is it that they rob you of the opportunity to show off your Badass Immune System? Your grandparents knew better, because they saw even the wealthy and healthy die like flies in epidemics. That's also why anti-vaccination kookery in Israel, as in the USA, is an upper-middle-class conceit of narcissists with little historical memory.

          • Tony Morris

            Lazy, so now, you claim the package inserts are meaningless, are you? Well, the package insert states clearly that AFP was reported following the vaccine. When there's smoke there's fire (and vice versa).
            If they've had a proof that the vaccine DOES NOT cause GBS - they wouldn't put this AE in the product sheet, now would they?
            May I remind you that there's no "causal link" between OPV and AFP too, or do you have any?
            There's never any causal links in vaccine wonderland. Only product sheet admitting that which can't be dined.
            All your other distractions (flu cause more GBS than vaccine, temporary,. bla. bla) - are irrelevant. If the product sheet states it - then Bob's your uncle.

          • Andrew Lazarus

            No, Tony, that's not the requirements for the product insert. You're simply wrong, as wrong as your colleague who listed a fatality by auto accident. You speak perfect English—maybe even your first language. Define "temporally".

    • Tony Morris

      And your 2nd point -

      You wrote:
      "Another specious claim is that there have never been any vaccine trials in children that used a saline or inert placebo.
      I have given examples of these trials, one in over 12,000 children half of whom received saline placebo conjugate pneumococcal vaccine.
      http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pu..."

      My claim was that none of the routine childhood vaccination in the US were tested in a clinical trial were the control group received a saline/inert placebo.
      You brought an example of a rota-virus vaccine trial. Are you backpedaling that one?
      No, I'll check the one you gave above, but this is not a routine vaccine in US, AFAIK.
      Do you have such atrial for the routine childhood vaccines in the US?

      • Andrew Lazarus

        It's not clear who is quibbling here.

        Please explain why we should ignore non-blind trials, e.g., the first polio trials, where the test subjects remain in the same environment as the control group and the disease is endemic, indeed, very common.

        • Tony Morris

          Sorry, Lazy, I'm taking one troll at a time.
          BTW, the trial must have an inert placebo in control group and also seriously report safety outcomes. Just to make it clear and give y'all a look ahead to the future. And yes, I've noted Dorit is being a chicken again, sending cronies instead.

          • Andrew Lazarus

            Why must the trial have an inert placebo? But, whatever, you do know that the initial polio trial included a randomized control component? You can learn a lot with Google, much more than with Mercola.com!

            You must feel very clever, calling me Lazy. By 10th grade, though, most every one had stopped with that, so when you get that far in school, let me know!

      • Mike Stevens

        I told you before about goalpost shifting Tony- here you are at it again. You appear to be a serial offender.

        First you just wanted to see a placebo based study in children, then you wanted it to be only a "substantial" trial in large numbers of children, then you wanted it to be an inert placebo or saline placebo, now you want it to be only vaccines on the US program, next you'll want it to be only vaccines used on kids with triplet siblings, then you'll want it only on kids with a Thomas the Tank engine badge.

        • Tony Morris

          You are telling lies, Mike, to cover up for not having the
          studies to show for. Not only that I didn't "shift" anything, this is meaningless.
          You know, why? because this is not a contest, Mike. We are seeking here the truth and only a Pharma shill will try to 'catch' me shifting goal posts etc.

          If you were anything but a pharma shill, you would write something like - "Hey tony, I wonder why I can't find such studies.. what does it mean?" (or something like that...)

          My intention was clear to you and Dorit and Lazy all along. You know exactly what I'm getting at. You just nitpick to avoid the inevitable. Pathetic.

          But, as you 3 stooges of pharma had already noticed - I'm not playing your lie game.

          Bottom line - you don't have the studies to show. And this is all I wanted to know. Dorit's evading, you guys don't produce the goods - looks like I have a trump up my sleeve.

          So long for now. I'll meet Dorit soon, and maybe she'll call you guys to die on your swords for her again... Sacrificing a soldier or two for the queen, hua?

    • Tony Morris

      BTW, Mike, finding just one won't help your cause, much, and won't save you guys from being exposed as a Pharma shill. just, so you'll know.

      • Andrew Lazarus

        To the extent "pharma shill" suggests payment, it's probably defamatory when false. You might check with an attorney before roboposting the same comments. On the other hand, most antivaccination sites are replete with "natural remedy" ads, which, being inert, are far more profitable than vaccines.

        • Mike Stevens

          I am also rather intrigued as to how people who disagree with Tony are to be "exposed as Pharma shills".
          Will someone at Glaxo central magically produce some invoices at some given sign from Tony?

      • Mike Stevens

        Recall, your claim was that there were no studies using saline or inert placebo. So all I have to do to show you up as a liar is to show you one study.

        In fact I have shown you two, and would be happy to show more, but I see that this entire exercise is fruitless since you are so mired in cognitive dissonance and denial that even 20 studies would somehow be disqualified by you.