The psychology of torture

The Milgram experiments showed that anybody could be capable of torture when obeying an authority. Are they still valid?

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Stanley Milgram and his 'shockbox'. Photo courtesy The Chronicle of Higher Education

Stanley Milgram and his 'shockbox'. Photo courtesy The Chronicle of Higher Education

Malcolm Harris is a writer and editor at The New Inquiry. He lives in Brooklyn, New York.

The year was 1960, and Dr Stanley Milgram had a theory about Germans. Only 27 years old, Milgram was a rising star in social psychology. He had just finished his doctorate work at Harvard on the phenomenon of conformity and begun a prestigious professorship at Yale. For his first experiment as a full-fledged academic, he wanted to push the literature on conformity further, to make it less abstract. Ever ambitious, Milgram didn’t just want a bigger challenge, he wanted to recreate the Holocaust, to quantify and study it at the microscopic level. And unfortunately, he got his wish.

Milgram’s graduate dissertation on conformity followed the famed work of Solomon Asch, a professor of psychology at Swarthmore College. Asch’s 1951 experiment requires a small group made up of confederates (ie, knowing actors) and one unknowing subject. They are presented with a card with a single black line, then shown another card with three black lines of varying length. The participants must pick one line out of the three that matches the single line. It’s a task so easy everyone gets it right on their own, but in this experiment the unknowing subject goes last, after the confederates have all given the same wrong answer. Asch found that under these circumstances a third of subjects routinely conform by giving the incorrect response.

Milgram tweaked Asch’s experiment a bit – using auditory tone lengths instead of lines – and sought an international comparison. (He wanted to use Germans, but his adviser persuaded him to use Norwegian and French populations instead.) The results would go on to be published in Scientific American, but Milgram was unsatisfied. This is how he described his thinking at the time to Richard Evans in The Making of Social Psychology (1980):
One of the criticisms that has been made of [Asch’s] experiments is that they lack a surface significance, because after all, an experiment with people making judgments of lines has a manifestly trivial content. So the question I asked myself is, ‘How can this be made into a more humanly significant experiment?’ And it seemed to me that if, instead of having a group exerting pressure on judgments about lines, the group could somehow induce something more significant from the person, then that might be a step in giving a greater significance to the behaviour induced by the group. Could a group, I asked myself, induce a person to act with severity against another person?

Milgram made sketches of a long box with circular buttons numbered one through nine. It was an electric shock indicator, a way to quantify and measure a person’s willingness to torture. This was the significant test he was looking for. No one would be actually shocked, of course, but the confederate would fake it. There was only one problem: in Asch’s experiment, it was easy to get a control test without group pressure; all you had to do was give the same line test to an isolated individual. But without the group, a lone person wouldn’t have any cause to shock a stranger. The control would require the experimenter to order the subject to perform.

In what he later called an ‘incandescent moment’, Milgram became more interested in the control than the test. He wondered how far people would go to follow his orders, and so he shifted the experiment’s focus from conformity to obedience. He planned to try it on Americans in New Haven, after which he would perform the experiment in Germany to see how the two compared. But once he saw the first results, Milgram knew the German comparison wouldn’t matter.

You probably already know the story: the subjects were far more obedient than they were expected to be, in both frequency and intensity. Milgram surveyed other psychologists before he ran the experiments, and his consulting group guessed about a tenth of one per cent (.125) of subjects (only sadists and psychopaths) would max out the voltage before refusing. Instead, 65 per cent of subjects hit the 450 volt button – labelled ‘XXX’ instead of ‘lethal’ in the final model – three times before Milgram cut them off. All subjects reached 300 volts, which meant they believed they had administered 20 distinct shocks. It was a successful experiment. Too successful. Cross-cultural comparisons were beside the point if most Americans were already Nazis just waiting for the right orders.

In his book Obedience to Authority (1974), Milgram published the results of his first experiment, along with the different variations he’d tried. It’s an ostensibly dry text, yet a narrative seeps through the columns of results and lists of control conditions. In the context of the first experiment’s unexpected results, the changed versions look like a man digging desperately for a limit. In the second test, he had the shocked confederate call out in pain and plead for mercy, clearly audible through the wall. A few more subjects stopped early, but only one person fewer went all the way. In the third test, Milgram put the victim in the same room as the shocker, but still 40 per cent got through 450 volts. Determined to find something humans wouldn’t do, the fourth version of Milgram’s experiment required the subject to hold down the confederate’s hand on a shock plate, even as he refused to co-operate and begged to be set free. Still, 12 of 40 subjects went all the way.

Milgram kept looking for ways to isolate the reason for this failure of empathy. He tried to establish a new baseline by having the confederate complain of a heart condition and scream as if he were actually dying. After 330 volts, the confederate would make no response, as though now unconscious or dead. It didn’t move the needle. ‘Probably there is nothing the victim can say that will uniformly generate disobedience,’ wrote Milgram. Begging for your life, it turns out, doesn’t do much good. Milgram could get subjects to rebel if he inserted disobedient confederates or a second authority with conflicting orders, but he never found a vaccine. In the epilogue of Obedience to Authority, he concludes that the human willingness to obey orders is ‘a fatal flaw nature has designed into us, and which in the long run gives our species only a modest chance of survival’. This had not been his hypothesis, nor was it his hope.

The spectre of Nazism and the banality of evil haunted the Milgram experiment. The capture and trial of the Nazi bureaucrat Adolf Eichmann took place at the same time as Milgram’s tests; the tests concluded within days of Eichmann’s execution. At the core of Milgram’s tests was the scientist’s desire to replicate as best he could the conditions of the gas chamber. He sought to induce the Holocaust in individual subjects so that he could measure evil at the atomic level. In an interview for 60 Minutes in 1979, Milgram told the host Morley Safer:
I would say, on the basis of having observed a thousand people in the experiment and having my own intuition shaped and informed by these experiments, that if a system of death camps were set up in the United States of the sort we had seen in Nazi Germany, one would be able to find sufficient personnel for these camps in any medium-sized American town.

It’s an ugly thing to know, and no doubt a stressful thing to prove a thousand times. After controversy regarding the ethics of his experiments, Milgram was denied tenure. He had a successful career at the Graduate Center at the City University of New York, but nothing he did could eclipse the notorious experiment he had designed in his 20s. In 1984, Milgram died, after his fifth heart attack, at the age of 51.

Daily Weekly

When I first learnt about Milgram in a high-school psychology class, I asked my grandfather, a Jewish clinical psychologist of the same era, about the experiments. He shook his head, sighed, and said ‘Poor Stanley’. Milgram had hoped a version of the Nazis’ own racial logic could save the rest of us from being implicated in the depths of their crimes: that there might be some distinctive evil about the Germans. But once the cross-cultural comparison was quickly deemed irrelevant, why proceed with the experiments? As a society, what do we have to gain by recreating this historical trauma?

What Milgram and his assistants told the subjects was that they were doing important work to advance the cause of science. It wasn’t a lie per se, but the social value of this knowledge isn’t immediately clear. The conclusion that man is cruel and beastly is repeated throughout art, theology and philosophy, not to mention the historical record. Milgram half-heartedly hoped that knowledge and awareness about obedience might decrease the human propensity to follow orders, but there’s no evidence that this is the case. In 2007, the Santa Clara University psychologist Jerry M Burger in collaboration with ABC News reproduced the experiment under current ethical guidelines. Nearly half a century after Milgram first performed the test, they found virtually no change in compliance, even with additional warnings and disclosures to the participants. It’s one of the most famous social science experiments of all time, but awareness, like pleading, doesn’t seem to do much good.

And yet, despite there being no obvious social value and some obvious individual harm, researchers keep creating new Milgram experiments. In June, a group of European researchers released a Milgram-based study that cross-referenced participants’ shock scores (on a mock game show instead of a lab session) with their results from a personality survey administered months later. Though the results weren’t dramatic, they found that ‘nice’ and ‘agreeable’ people were more likely to follow instructions from a game-show host telling them to torture strangers.

He was haunted by the demon of obedience, of Eichmann and the gas chamber, and he took an active role in calling it forth

In 2005, a research team at Eindhoven University of Technology in The Netherlands produced a study that found a novel spin: they replaced the confederate/victim with a robot that participants had to train in word recognition. But with no sympathy for the bot, not one subject refused to obey. An international team of researchers had a similar idea in 2006 where they tried the experiment with a virtual confederate/victim. When faced with a life-size Sims-style cartoon figure, three of 20 participants disobeyed. The original Milgram experiment has also been repeated in a number of countries, including West Germany and South Africa. What all of these tests have shown is that, in a controlled situation, most people will obey an authority, even if that authority tells them to do something that conflicts with their morals; but why do research psychologists remain so interested in demonstrating the phenomenon?

Like the administrator in the experiment script, these researchers justify themselves with the pursuit of knowledge, but Milgram experiments seem to have a deeper motivation. In his essay ‘Remembering, Repeating and Working-Through’ (1914), Sigmund Freud introduced the idea of ‘repetition compulsion’. From the perspective of pleasure-seeking and pain-avoidance, Freud couldn’t understand why his patients would relive traumatic relationships from their past in therapy instead of trying to address them directly and move on. Gradually, Freud came to understand the urge to repeat as a way to master and control trauma, to take an active role in what had been a passive experience. The repetition that fills human lives ‘gives the impression of a pursuing fate, a daemonic trait in their destiny’, wrote Freud in Beyond the Pleasure Principle (1920).

Milgram was the child of two eastern-European Jews, and as an adolescent he was keenly aware that it was only historical chance that put him in New York and not a Nazi camp. His oft-cited letter to a Harvard classmate in 1958 reveals a young man beset with survivor’s guilt: ‘I should have been born into the German-speaking Jewish community of Prague in 1922 and died in a gas chamber some 20 years later,’ Milgram wrote. ‘How I came to be born in the Bronx Hospital I’ll never quite understand.’ He was haunted by the demon of obedience, of Eichmann and the gas chamber, and he took an active role in calling it forth from where it sits in the human psyche.

The Holocaust haunts more than just Milgram; in many ways, it’s the founding trauma for social psychology. So great was its influence, that in his 1979 history of the sub-discipline, Dorwin Cartwright wrote: ‘If I were required to name the one person who has had the greatest impact upon the field [of social psychology], it would have to be Adolf Hitler.’

Psychoanalysing the discipline itself helps to explain why social psychologists continue repeating the same series of experiments beyond their utility. The Jewish gestalt psychologist Kurt Lewin emigrated from Berlin to the US when Hitler came to power in 1933. Three years later, he would publish the founding equation of social psychology: B = f (P, E), meaning that behaviour is a function of a person in their environment. Perhaps the world expert on Milgram is Thomas Blass, a Hungarian Jew born during the Second World World War and himself a survivor of the genocide. So, far from being a pure, existential study of human nature, social psychology emerges from a particular moment in history.

Milgram didn’t write a hypothesis for an experiment, he made a script for a play. It’s poor science, but it might be great art

In Behind the Shock Machine (2012), the Australian journalist and psychologist Gina Perry assailed the very validity of the Milgram experiments. Although she initially came to the study of Milgram with sympathy for the haunted doctor, Perry quickly found a more worthy object for her feelings: Milgram’s subjects. Reviewing transcripts from the experiments in the Yale archive, she found a lot of disobedience hidden in the obedience numbers, and a number of confounding variables. For example, Milgram made sure subjects knew the payment for participation was theirs even if they walked away, but in the transcripts this seems to have triggered reciprocity with the experimenters. One subject continues only after the experimenter tells him he can’t return the money. Another obedient subject remonstrates after she’s finished obeying, because she quickly understands what the experiment was really about and is disgusted. In the drive for quantitative results, the procedure ignored valuable qualitative information. ‘I would never be able to read Obedience to Authority again without a sense of all the material that Milgram had left out,’ Perry writes, ‘the stories he had edited, and the people he had depicted unfairly.’

In an unpublished paper Perry found in the archive, Milgram was quite candid with regard to his experiment’s true purpose: ‘Let us stop trying to kid ourselves; what we are trying to understand is obedience of the Nazi guards in the prison camps, and that any other thing we may understand about obedience is pretty much of a windfall, an accidental bonus.’ Milgram didn’t write a hypothesis for an experiment, he made a script for a play. It’s poor science, Perry writes, but it might be great art.

To view the Milgram experiments as a work of art is to include the haunted young doctor as a character, and to question his reliability as a narrator. As an artwork, the experiments can tell us about much more than obedience to authority; they speak to memory, trauma, repetition, the foundations of post-war social thought, and the role of science in modernity. There is no experiment that can prove who we are but, in its particulars, art can speak in universals. Long after his tests are considered invalid, Milgram’s story will live on.

Read more essays on ethics, medical ethics and social psychology

Comments

  • Anarcissie

    It wasn't clear to me from the article whether Milgram's experiments and those like them are now considered scientifically valid or not -- regardless of being artistically valid. They seem valid given much of daily life and what we read in history, but I gather some people question that.

    • saksin

      They are considered valid in the only way that scientific validity is established and needs to be established, namely by replication. These experimnents have stood the test of time. Malcolm Harris' attempt to sow doubt by innuendo and excursions into Freudian pseudo-science may have gotten him a story, but has not altered the results of the Milgram experiments and their replicating follow-ups. Nor does this genre of experiments stand alone: Philip Zimbardo's Stanford perison experiment provides a nice complement, with essentially the same message. Malcolm Harris is barking up the wrong tree, for reasons one can only guess at.

  • robertjberger

    Wait, the end of the article just destroys most of what the bulk of the article says on hearsay from psychologist, Gina Perry.

    The bulk of the article asserts the facts that the experiment has been repeated over and over with better proceedures, and nowhere does it say the new experiments proved the old experiments wrong. But then, at the end, the author throws in a lackadaisical off the cuff remark by one psychologist that implies its all moot

    That is so sloppy. This is too important of a subject to have such a journalistic injustice.

    We're talking about would could be a fundamental issue of why humans are acting so stupid again, following orders to kill 100's of thousands today which can turn into 100's of millions again if we don't learn how to stop being such monkeyboys. To just brush it off after so clearly stating how serious this could be is just plain stupefying.

    • JonangusMackay

      Quite agree.

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    • Mr F

      Good post. Aeon needs to start practising some sort of quality assurance. This article starts out reasonably well, but at what feels like the half way mark it simply trails off and gives up, seemingly contradicting most of what's been said via a couple of sentences. An argument such as this deserves much more.

  • joebeckmann

    There's a far more accessible - if oblique - application of these insights in the kerfuffle over Deresiewicz and his vision of college students as sheep, conforming uncritically with their own exploitation by greedy colleges. Google him and you'll find his book, Excellent Sheep, his articles in the Atlantic and the New Republic, and, then, if you look a little more for Cathy Davidson's response - in her blog on HASTAC for example - you'll see the same denial that inspired the recycling of Milgram's experiments: people really can't be that bad; smart people are more immune to evil; higher education is more "open" than a "concentration camp" - although what colleges do is teach much the same kind of "concentration." The only "breakthrough" I've seen is the new documentary, "Ivory Tower," that focuses on the greed of college tuition and the critical response of students and ... some ... parents or faculty.

  • http://www.aktive-arbeitslose.at/ Aktive Arbeitslose Österreich

    Just ask the stuff of your local work agency / job center ... (they just do it very well :-( )

  • https://www.youtube.com/user/salondesimone/ Macarons & Sakura Tea

    His experiment won't get a nod from IRB today but its major finding remains as one of the most insightful ever made in the field of social psychology. I hoped that the author delved more into the archive to reveal that aside from a lot of disobedience, a sense of commitment pervaded and this was what spurred the teachers (torturers) in identifying with the authority figure.

    • ApathyNihilism

      Is "commitment" somehow supposed to justify or excuse the obedience?

      Also, again, what "disobedience"? In repeated experiments, the majority obeyed.

      • saksin

        Exactly, many obeyed DESPITE the acute discomfort they experienced in inflicting obvious (apparent) pain on a hapless experimental subject (the stooge). Let us not forget: The trials were FILMED (never mentioned in this tendentious article), and some of these sequences show heartwrenching conflict in the faces and posture of the "teachers", yet they pushed ever higher buttons as the subjects failed on their "learning task" and the authority figure kept intoning "the experiment must continue" (while every "teacher" had been informed that they could walk out any time they chose to).

        THAT is the message of the Milgram experiments, and that is the message that is so hard to take to heart for each of us, thinking that "we would never do such a thing". Well, the Milgram experiments, and their latter-day follow-ups, proved otherwise, with numbers that are hard to argue against...

  • ApathyNihilism

    Why are the experiments "poor science"? The results have been replicated widely.

    What is the "disobedience hidden…"? If it is hidden, it is not disobedience. The actions are what speak.

    • JustData

      These days it is much more common for experimental design in the fields of psychology and social psych to feature a combination or hybrid of both qualitative and quantitative methods. Strong and robust qualitative methods tell us about the qualities of the performance data, and the shadings of human behavior.
      The people in Milgram's experiments are described in quantitative results as following orders completely to carry out what they thought was torture or as stopping at some point short of what they thought was the highest level of torture and defying the authority figure by stopping short.
      The author is describing qualitative data that was not part of the published report of the studies. And also specifically mentions 'confounding factors' which undermine the rigor of the experimental design. Apparently the confounding factors were also not part of the published report(s), but certainly should have been. Confounding factors are a critical aspect of the design that we consider when we asses rigor and robustness of the design itself. Confounding factors, among other critical characteristics of the design, method, criterion measures, etc. determine how we interpret the data and the results.

  • http://www.codoh.com Jett_Rucker

    The career of Milgram and his experiments quite resembles that of other exploiters of the evils of the Holocaust. He started out with something aimed at demonizing the German perpetrators, found that Germans might NOT be so different - indeed, we're ALL Germans (that way). At this point, the course veers away from the content of most stories capitalizing on the horror story.

    No prob. The finding offered sensation, fame, maybe even some fortune. The project got right back on the track of most of the Holocaust sensations, just without the special demonization of the Germans.

    Despite the shedding of the explicit Holocaust meme, the story is of a piece with all the rest of the opportunistic exploitation of the greatest Hoax of the Twentieth Century. And as a victim-once-removed, Milgram himself bears considerable resemblance to the rest of the hoaxers.

    • saksin

      Would you care to elaborate on what you are referring to as the "greatest Hoax of the Twentieth Century"?

      • http://www.codoh.com Jett_Rucker

        The Hoax of the Twentieth Century is a 1976 book by Arthur Butz. DO read it! It's on Amazon (and everywhere else).

        • saksin

          I did not ask you for a reading list, I asked YOU to state what YOU mean by the "greatest Hoax of the Twentieth Century". I am still waiting.

  • Captainfuture

    I was in New Haven in 1968, a penniless young man who answered an ad promising $25 to participate in an experiment on learning. I called the number and asked what the experiment entailed. I couldn't get a straight answer, so I never showed up. How many other people opted out at that stage? What is the mindset of people who answer an ad for $25? Where else did they come from? What has always astonished me is that this was 60s in New Haven, the antiwar and hippie era, when questioning authority and defying authority was at its height. And they got everyone to unquestioningly obey authority? And then go out on the street and demonstrate against LBJ? Look at the photos of subjects--crewcuts, etc. I can't speak for the experiments that followed, but this one always seemed fishy to me.

  • PL

    A similar playlet-experiment was performed in real life half and for gain half a century earlier by Wilhelm Voigt. See the Wiki article on him. Results were the same, but the subjects were all Germans that time. In the end Kaiser Wilhelm pardoned the imposter Voigt, and his statue, clad in his falsely assumed garb of authority, stands on the steps of Köpenick town hall today.

  • Robert Landbeck

    "Milgram’s story will live on" because of the haunting and unanswered questions of human nature itself. That without an 'ethical foundation' within human nature, one independent of cultural perception, to guide reason towards what is right, our species, however 'exceptional' one may like to think of us, has more destructive potential [called evil] than what our understanding of morality and conscience is able to deliver as 'civilization.

    "Here the world remains, holed and stranded on the rocks of its own myths and vanities, unable to perceive and transcend its condition; confounded somewhere between fear and desire, aspiration and material perception. And progress, modernity's central enlightenment theme, burns less and less bright; the path of human development drifting
    inexorably towards its own self made hell!" http://www.energon.org.uk

  • CK Dexter

    This article is so disappointing, especially given Aeon's usually consistent quality.

    I'm quite skeptical of Perry's claims, but let's assume, for the sake of argument, that the Milgram experiments are invalid. The article in no way makes that case, briefly mentioning only one objector, and only problems that do not clearly invalidate the results.

    More astonishing, it ends with "long after his tests are considered invalid." At most, the provided evidence shows there is a debate about their validity, not that there is or will be a consensus about its invalidity. More peculiar still, this sophomoric language of "are considered"--is this article about *scientific validity* implying that a scientific experiment's validity will be determined by popular consensus?

    An embarrassment. Aeon is usually such a good publication, I hope they recognize this article was a mistake and improve their editorial standards.

  • Jeff Maylor

    The real point of the experiment was to demonstrate the evil White Gentiles. This is pretty much the general Jewish view, at least of "Jewish Intellectuals".

    • Anarcissie

      Please troll elsewhere.

  • saksin

    With this piece by Malcolm Harris on the Milgram experiments, Aeon continues its suspect tradition of publishing articles purporting to take down some well established facet of science or another by slipshod journalism. As if Milgram's motives for doing his experiments would change the results he obtained! And why is it not to his credit that those motives turned on trying to shed light on the behavior of the functionaries in the death camps? Does that require excursions into Freudian psychoanalysis? If Malcolm Harris burns to expose pseudoscience, let him take on Freud! That exercise could fill many issues of Aeon if pursued with due diligence.

    Milogram was unde no illusion of "recreating the Holocaust" in the laboratory, or "inducing it" in the volunteers he studied. He wanted to shed light on the psychology of obedience to authority, and what is noteworthy about his results is how far people off the street would go under a pressure of authority INCOMPARABLY LESS than that in which war-time death camp functionaries found themselves (for one thing their very livelihood depended on performing!).

    The Milgram experiments have stood the test of time, and they do not stand alone in the hard lesson they have to teach us: There is the Stanford prison experiment conducted by Philip Zimbardo some 10 years later, with essentially the same stern message. Some would perhaps like to close their eyes to the farreaching implications of that genre of experimentation for our self-knowledge.

    To the extent that we do so close our eyes, we strip ourselves of what we need to know in order to avoid a repetition of history. Let us not forget that some - if few - did indeed refuse to go on in those experiments, and as Philip Zimbardo has pointed out, the characteristics and motives and psychology of those few are one of the fundamentally important results of this experimental genre.

  • disqus_6HfnTuxPSq

    Why has Aeon, I hope without the permission of the author, pitched this article this way? "The Milgram experiments showed that anybody could be capable of torture when obeying an authority. Are they still valid?" Yes, they are still valid; no, they did not show that "anybody" could be capable of torture. Near the end of "Eichmann in Jerusalem," Hannah Arendt mentions two teenaged boys who chose to be executed rather than join the SS. They wrote to their families that they would rather die than participate in the crimes that they knew they would be required to perpetrate.

    While this article does not live down to its false advertising, I agree with most other respondents that it is useless and even perverse. Milgram's experiments told us, as almost nothing else has so emphatically, that obedience is the unpardonable virtue. Leave the Holocaust out of it. Yes, Milgram hoped that Americans would differentiate themselves dramatically from Germans. Had they done so, this would have encouraged fruitful sociological investigations into the nature of specifically German cultural habits as decisive factors in the Nazi phenomenon. Instead, the experiments upset the apple cart and told us unpalatable truths about human nature that truly had not been known before. So what is the point of an article that parades as a kind of debunking? Not that it actually is: instead, it just attempts to mix up an unimpeachable experimental result with high-tone gossip about Milgram.

    Arendt showed us that the real problem with Eichmann was not that he was without a conscience: it was that he had a conscience and it would have been disturbed had he disobeyed a lawful order. Martin Luther admonished a Christian to obey not only his father and mother, but also all parental surrogates, and made it clear that this mean almost anyone who outranks you socially. The German patriarchal father of the late 19th and early 20th century was an absolute autocrat in the family and obedience was expected to be immediate and unquestioning. So there are some characteristically Teutonic elements in the production of an Eichmann, but Milgram showed that the virus that infected him is universal. Between them, Arendt and Milgram made perhaps the greatest single contribution ever to furthering our understanding of how evil can metastasize. I can't figure out the relevance of anything that this article says to this historical fact.

  • Hard Little Machine

    So you're saying you're not capable of such things. Fascinating. Tell that to the Holocaust.

    • Jeff Maylor

      I think you are proving the point there. The goal of the experiment was to "prove" all Whites are nazis.

      • Hard Little Machine

        No the point of it was to demonstrate many people are quite capable of being sociopaths when they are absolved correctly.

        • Shunk W

          Does that include the settlers and the IDF stealing land and killing Palestinian civilians?

          • Hard Little Machine

            I agree we should exterminate all the Jews everywhere. Glad we're on the same page. Kill them all.

  • DutchS

    How do we know that ANY of these experiments were done? If the researchers lied to their test subjects, why wouldn't they lie to a journal?

    But assuming the tests actually happened, one very important point is that the test subjects were often told they were doing something beneficial like administering shock therapy. Nobody was ever told "Hey, y'all, let's see how loud we can make this guy scream." Is holding a recalcitrant child still to receive a vaccination an indication of "willingness to torture?"

    But obedience is only part of it. Most cases of otherwise normal people engaging in atrocities have involved a belief they were acting in the service of some Transcendent Cause. Historically the two leading examples have been religion and the state. But beginning with Robespierre, a new one has emerged: social justice. The French Reign of Terror, the Nazi campaign against Jewish bankers, and the purges of Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot were all surrounded by the rhetoric of social justice and eliminating the oppressors.

    An up and coming Transcendent Cause is the environment. So far it's been limited to a few eco-terrorists and the Unabomber, but it's not hard to imagine some future demagogue whipping followers up to purge the world of SUV owners.

    • saksin

      All good points except the first one, "How do we know...". Milgram's experiments were documented on FILM, and like all science in peer reviewed journals were backed up by archived documentation. The doubts Malcolm Harris attempts to sow about these experiments are gratuitous, and amount to no more than a clumsy attempt at "science exposé", for reasons one can only guess at.

      The "higher cause" in the name of which the authority figure in these experiments spoke is "science". See further my other comments on this article.

    • danwalter

      As per my comment above, backing for your Transcendent Cause theory:

      http://www.theguardian.com/science/blog/2011/sep/01/stanley-milgram-research-zealots-zombies

  • tedrey

    I was under 10 years old, late 1940s, mid-west summer camp for boys. On the last day, the camp counselors arranged a huge night-time capture-the-flag "game." We were told that when we caught one of the "enemy" team behind our lines, we were to find out if they had the flag. We were to rip their shirt off, look-in their shoes and throw them away, take off their pants . . . find the flag. Participation was mandatory. My impression was that violence was optional.,
    I hid all day. In the morning no body talked about it. When I told them about this, my parent were horrified. I don't know if they did anything about it. I haven't remembered it for years.
    Purely anecdotal, of course.

  • Eli Goldstone

    Only the final third of this article has anything novel to say and tails off before the hypothesis can be fully explored. Very odd.

  • Shunk W

    Glad I am not the only one that always thought that "experiment" was way to narrowly biased to be of any actual use. By the way I saw that machine in a museum about 15 years ago and took pictures for the Psychology class I was taking at the time.

  • http://www.aristos.org Louis Torres

    Milgram made "a script for a play"? His experiment "might be great art"? Unfortunately, Malcolm Harris doesn't quote Gina Perry directly on this, but the pretentiousness of his concluding paragraph---"As an artwork, the experiments . . . speak to memory, trauma, repetition, the foundations of post-war social thought, and the role of science in modernity [!]. . . . [I]n its particulars, art can speak in universals"---is his alone. That part regarding art and universals is true, but otherwise Harris (and Perry, it seems) ought to refrain from linking scientific experiments and art. As Gary put it so well in this comment section (if I understand him correctly), "The art/science bit is nonsense. If it is bad science it is not art, just bad science. If good science, good science."

    The book to read on this, in addition to the one cited below [!], is cultural historian Jacques Barzun's 'The Use and Abuse of Art (1974), in particular Lecture Five: "Art and Its Tempter, Science." (Barzun [1907-2012], if I may be so bold as to note here, endorsed both 'What Art Is' and Aristos a number of times in his last years. See link on the Aristos web home page.)

    -- Louis Torres, Co-Editor, Aristos (An Online Review of the Arts), and Co-Author, 'What Art Is: The Esthetic Theory of Ayn Rand' (2000)

  • http://www.aristos.org Louis Torres

    I quote your first three sentences (favorably) in one of the more recent comments. If I didn't understand your meaning, please let me know! I also like the rest of your comment. - Louis Torres

  • budgielady

    in all these comments no-one has said a word about events currently unfolding in our own time, which strike me as offering a significant verification of milgram's work. two events jump to mind:
    regarding the ebola epidemic in west africa, the west has sat on its hands while people died horrible deaths in increasing numbers. only now that we may be affected, is there movement.
    regarding the barbaric behaviour of IS and its terrorist islamist affiliates, such as al qaeda, IJ, and even hamas, (including beheadings, crucifictions, rapes, enslavements, use of human shields, and indiscriminate slaughter) this reminder of milgram's findings, and those of subsequent duplicating researchers, forces me to think about their madness in another way. seems the majority are merely obeying authority. and i imagine those few who disobey soon meet their death. (just as soldiers who disobey or go awol in wartime can expect to die when they are caught.)
    thus, is an aspect of our horror a kind of schadenfreude? do we recognise our own tendencies in their barbarity?

  • saksin

    Thank you! I did of course know which way the wind was blowing, and I think it is noteworthy that Jett Rucker would not come right out and tell us what he believes, which is what I was pressing for. Till I hear otherwise I will provisionally conclude - deeming 4 days of waiting to be enough for a provisional conclusion - that Jett Rucker, besides being deluded, lacks the courage to state his convictions in this forum.

  • saksin

    Dissent? You presumably mean difference. Replications have expanded the population from the US to Europe. But of course, it is always possible that some population can be found somewhere whose test results would differ from what has already been found. We know absolutely nothing about that, the possibility being purely speculative. Moreover, the difference could go either way: MORE obedience to authority or LESS, there is no way of knowing till such a population has been found.

  • saksin

    Right, so "has supported" rather than "exonerated" would be a better wording, since there was no taint to be washed away in the first place, except in Malcolm Harris' tendentious innuendo.

  • danwalter

    This from Stephen Reicher and Alex Haslam

    "Stanley Milgram taught us we have more to fear from zealots than zombies...

    "... the participants were not blindly obeying orders but identifying with a leader and a cause ... Contrary to all the received wisdom, it seems that whatever was going on in these so-called obedience studies, people were not blindly following orders..."

    http://www.theguardian.com/science/blog/2011/sep/01/stanley-milgram-research-zealots-zombies

  • Censor

    I'm not sure I grasp the purpose of this article. Here is everything admitted to support the Milgram experiment as flawed--yes, ethically--however, it is cited as entirely repeatable with stricter ethical control and refined mechanisms; his experiment revealed, yes, people (most people, regardless of race or cultural affiliation) are capable of great horror--which we knew--but it did so with the constraint that this horror could be commanded and made manifest by the power of authority (even if it were to sacrifice the satiety of another person), something we did not; and yet all these things only support his validity. Even if awareness does not seek to circumvent this, most likely, biological trait: how is that knowledge not of some use so as to merit its dismissal? Certainly if one is to track the Milgram experiments critically as art, as a cultural document--a testament to the many figures listed--, one comes to more potential insights than his time-tested conclusion would allow to be objectively taken away, however that does not exile the work beyond the boundaries of "science." His design says a great deal about his time, place, and character: and how do we judge which information is more valuable? That was a question I was hoping to see answered, that and something about the current state of the use of torture (and the psychology behind those affairs). I'm leaving quite remiss for those concerns.

  • Chen Qin

    The only difference between "Obedience to authority" and "Behind the shock machine" is that the later book is much more sympathetic to the volunteers that are obedient all the way and relates more of their personal story.

    The later book does put more emphasis on the factors influencing the obedient subjects to go all the way in an attempt to explain why the rate of obedience is so high but the general trend of the experiment is not challenged.

    I actually feel that the later book reinforced the point of "Obedience to authority" in the sense that those are decent, normal people just like us. Yet, sweep along by the situation, they follow orders and discover something of their own nature that would traumatise them for the rest of their life.

  • Mark Eccles

    With the brain shrinkage in the mentally ill from psychiatric drugs [Ho, B.-C., Andreasen, N. C., Ziebell, S., Pierson, R. & Magnotta, V. Arch. Gen. Psychiatry 68, 128-137 (2011) , Ho, B.-C., Andreasen, N. C., Dawson, J. D. & Wassink T. H. Am. J. Psychiatry 164, 1890-1899 (2007) , Lewis, D. A. Arch. Gen. Psychiatry 68, 126-127 (2011) ] all pharmacists who issue psychiatric drugs to patients of psychiatry is the real world Milgram experiment.

    Antipsychotic deflates the brain
    http://www.nature.com/news/2010/100606/full/news.2010.281.html

    "Haloperidol shrank volunteers' striatums in two hours, but (when stopped) they bounced back within a day." Tost, H. et al. Nature Neurosci. doi:doi:10.1038/nn.2572 (2010).

    Imagine if you have to take the Haloperidol long term. No visible damage and everything "bad" is blamed on the M.I. not the drug effects on the brain.

    And it is a 18 Billion dollar a year business.

  • http://www.codoh.com Jett_Rucker

    It's fascinating to read this writer's statement that, after the experiment revealed the ghoulish nature of (the) Americans, conducting the experiment in Germany would have been pointless.

    Why pointless? While the Germans could hardly have tested out significantly MORE ghoulish than the Americans, might they not possibly have tested out significantly LESS cruel/obedient/whatever?

    I guess we just didn't want to go there, eh? Or maybe the writer (and/or Milgram) simply couldn't IMAGINE that Germans might be less bloodthirsty than Americans.

    I've known dozens of both groups, and it would not surprise me in the least if Germans tested out less cruel. And though I was not born until 1945, I'm confident the same results (whatever they were) would have obtained, say, in 1940 as in 1960, or 1980.

    Maybe it's because I'm not Jewish. And yes, I AM half-German. My kid is half-Jewish.

  • http://www.codoh.com Jett_Rucker

    I wonder if the real impetus behind denying Milgram tenure at Yale had to do with his having tended to exonerate those evil, cruel Germans for having conducted the Holocaust (at least insofar as the notion that no one else could/would have done it).

    Of course, the Holocaust might in reality have been MUCH less (and less evilly motivated) than it is now made out to be, but Milgram never said that, implied it, nor likely even thought it.